Title Comment Comment Date Comment Link
'How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'N' Roll' by Elijah Wald

Every couple months some moron will say something like this just to get attention. Memo to Elijah, Pierro Scaruffi tried to build a career on bashing the Beatles, and he is widely considered a moron. What Mr. Wald is saying would be considered completely racist if he wasn’t a geeky little white boy. There is a this thing called evolution, it exists in music too. However, the arguments Mr. Wald is using are some of the worst I have heard. To bash a band for influencing Yes and Pink Floyd is ridiculous. Plus, Sgt. Peppers came out 3 months after Velvet Underground and Nico, so it was in the air already and the Beatles were already doing this kind of stuff on Revolver a year earlier.

How boring so let's criticize a band for evolving and going away from their roots. Mr. Wald is correct that Sgt Pepper inspired other bands but is it really their fault a lot what came out was dreck. The same could be said about any bands that might have been influenced by the Velvet Underground or what came after Nirvana in grunge

6/18/2009 View
Best Composers (All Genres) Of All Time

One more point have you actually listened to George Harrison "Wonderwall" album Harrison was the REALISER of this. Using both Indian and Western musicians its a forecast really of what would be called World Music in the 80s. This process was started on "Love You To" in 1966. Even the Yardbirds tried out a sitar player in 1965 but I would not call it World Music. I know Scarruffites are programmed to not like the Beatles but get your facts straight. Peace.

5/7/2009 View
Best Composers (All Genres) Of All Time

You compared Lennon/McCartney and Brian Wilson to Mozart not me. I am responding to Neptune's rock music list. You know anyway that Leonard Bernstein called Lennon/McCartney the greatest songwriters since Schubert. You Scarruffites keep on coming even though I suspect you are one person.

Lennon/McCartney AND Brian Wilson had a gift for melody. Their tunes have the power to stick in one's mind. A Beatles melody is immediately recognizable by its natural flow, as if it were driven by its own internal dynamic. That can't be said about Captain Beefheart could you be honest there

Even if you say Captain Beefheart created three great albums though most view Safe As Milk as only Ok. The Beatles by most people estimation have created the most influential pop/rock albums and at least 5 are generally considered to be amongst the top 100 albums of all time. Then add the singles on top of the albums.

The Beatles music is easily more covered by musicians than Zappa which is not a knock but fact. There are literally thousands of jazz versions of Beatles songs. It's about melody and chord progressions that attract all these cover versions

The Beatles especially George Harrison helped put World Music in rock on the map. To call it pop music with world instruments is reaching. Harrison was radically pushing the songwriting envelope.

George Harrison one of his most innovations in Rock was the merging of Classical Indian with pop music. This was a huge influence on the start of World Music in rock and progressive rock though not the kind that became Yes or King Crimson.

George was a proficient practitioner in the theory of Indian music, and this was reflected in the way he used certain chord voicing (I’m thinking in particular of diminished chords here), and melodies that to western ears skirt towards dissonance. In fact they are reflecting of the “microtones” of Indian music scales – a good example of this is “Blue Jay Way”, which was directly based on an Indian raga, and is a very advanced example of cross-cultural musical synthesis.

George Harrison was working at a sophisticated level of extrapolating Indian scales to the Western setting, something no one else had done in rock music at the time. "Love You To", which is certainly derived from classical Indian, "Within You Without You", “The Inner Light", and even "Norwegian Wood" follows the raga khamaj avarohana is an unaltered raga were.

In "Love You To" could be rock music first example of using classical Indian music in terms of instrumentation, mode, rhythm, and structure.

One more song “Blue Jay Way,” was conceived on the harmonium but is more significant in that it reveals the depth of Harrison understanding of Indian music, as well as his ability to express it in a pop context. The opening sequence of notes imposes part of the scale from an Indian raga called “Marwa” onto a basic C-major chord. He uses notes that are dissonant in the C-major setting (E-flat and F-sharp), pivoting them around a C-diminished chord. It certainly was not rock ‘n’ roll, and the quality of his work was now to be found in the details-not in the immediate impact. Perhaps this is why this example of Harrison radically pushing the songwriting envelope is rarely discussed in such terms.

Lastly to say pop music is not innovative is a joke. The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, The Kinks, and even much of the Yardbirds music is pop music that is rock related.

From Howard Goodall's 20th Century Greats: Lennon and McCartney

"The Beatles drifted away from the rock'n'roll style over-used and endlessly repeated by most of their counterparts and began exploring new musical avenues. Nothing was left aside in this exploration: harmony, orchestration and rhythm were all revived and transformed by the Beatles's genius. In 'Eleanor Rigby', they used a quasi-Baroque string orchestration. The construction of 'Penny Lane' is based on a systematic and very unusual change of keys. In their later albums, they successfully incorporated traditional Indian music harmony and Avant-garde techniques used by classical musicians, such as the use of distorted tapes in studios to create new sounds".

5/7/2009 View
Best Composers (All Genres) Of All Time

People please stop listing groups. Those aren't composers at least write the composers names. The Rolling Stones had two main songwriters the whole band did not write the majority of their music. The Soft Machine had more than one writer.

Melody + lyrics + innovation/influence=greatest composer ever sorry that goes to Lennon/McCartney and Brian Wilson.

McGuinn, and Dylan were not saying Lennon/McCartney were doings things musically no one was doing in rock music for laughs. The same goes for Wilson when he heard Rubber Soul. McCartney and Dylan called Brian Wilson a genius. "God Only Knows" is a lot better than what Captain Beefheart put out.

Captain Beefheart, The Velvet Underground both have one classic album. You said the Vampire Rodents created one great album. Faust had their debut album with at least two of the greatest compositions in rock music which is your opinion.

Still all these people you mention are known for creating one great album or a couple of great compositions. Lennon/McCartney are easily more covered by musicians than Zappa in all genres especially in jazz, pop, and rock music. They were not only known for great albums, also great signles as many have said the greatest single may have been Penny Lane/Strawberry Fields Forever. That is not my opinion only.

Get your history right Third Ear Band did not invent World Music have you heard of the Beatles "Love You To" and "Within You Without You", The Rolling Stones "Gomper" or George Harrison album Wonderwall. This was already common in rock music by 1968.

One to annoy Scarrufites Minimalism in pop music one of the first examples is the Beatles "Tomorrow Never Knows" by The Beatles is an early example of a piece of music written only in C, making a collage from a drone played on an Indian tambura, a modal tune, bluesy instrumental figures, tape loops, ADT, vocals played through Leslie speakers, distorted close-up miking of instruments, and a psychedelic mystical "outlook.

One last point making original music does not mean it's great it could mean it's garbage also. I highly doubt anyone you mentioned wrote 100 great songs and from the ones I know on this list they didn't. Sorry Scarrufites THAT I don't agree with your opinions.

5/7/2009 View
Best Composers (All Genres) Of All Time

I was not putting down Neptune at all. I disagree with Neptune's opinion. Most of the artists on the rock list what have two great albums at best. That is not enough of a body of work to say they are amongst the greatest "songwriters or composers". Brian Wilson and Lennon/McCartney are more deserving but then again it's just my opinion. If a football player had one great season would he be called one of the greatest football players ever? Now I am sorry you took it that way but let's be realistic how many great songs did Captain Beefheart compose?

5/6/2009 View
Best Composers (All Genres) Of All Time

Are we talking about composers or songwriters? I don't mean it as a snob distinction, it's just different. Composers create integrated music for instruments or voices where the arrangement or orchestration is an integral part of the form. it implies being able to write (or communicate by other means) parts for a wide variety of instruments and understanding how those instruments function, and a basic understanding of harmony rhythm and form. There are great songwriters who are by no means composers and great composers who couldn't write a good song if their lives depended on it. A lot of composition is about sound as opposed to tunes and words.

So there are a lot of great songwriters in rock, a few great arrangers, and very few composers:

The Rolling Stones were great songwriters but by no means are great composers. The rest of your rock list except for Zappa is suspect at best for many reasons like one great album or a couple of singles does not make a great composer. I MEAN YOU HAVE THE VELVET Underground, a bunch of unknowns with one great album like The Vampire Rodents (Lullaby Land)
and not Brian Wilson or Paul McCartney on your list.

5/6/2009 View
Best Composers (All Genres) Of All Time

Hey it's ok we disagree. Sometimes I prefer simplistic blues based rock music The Rolling Stones, to the Beatles songs where experts marvel at how a song can contains passages in 4/4, 3/4, 5/4, etc., and "strange" modes like the mixolydian, and funny unorthodox chord progressions. Oh set to some nice-ass melodies. It's fine with me.

2/24/2009 View
Best Composers (All Genres) Of All Time

You have the Stones but not Lennon & McCartney which is your opinion? The Stones were not better or even close, in my opinion. They wrote the Stones first major hit and it doesn't seem logical to have the Stones ahead of the Beatles especially in terms of songwriting.

"These guys were incredibly successful so many times".

Just on that criteria the Stones and Zappa were not even close. John Lennon in particular was pushing the limits of a straight pop song on "Tomorrow Never Knows" and "Revolution "9".

2/24/2009 View
Greatest Albums of All Time (Rock & Jazz)

Yawn! Yeah people over hype them if they call them the sole influence to every band in music. But to counter act that and say they are not one of the greatest bands ever is ridiculous. They changed how we wrote and recorded music.

What sparked that original creative spark that
became prog rock?

Bill Buford: The Beatles. They broke down every barrier that ever existed. Suddenly you could do anything after The Beatles. You could write your own music, make it ninety yards long, put it in 7/4, whatever you wanted.

Karl Bartos of Kraftwerk

"Sampling has been around since the Beatles they did it all. There is no difference between using tapes and digital machinery." Yawn again

Almost all early electropop artists were English, and were inspired by innovative artists such as Thomas Brown and the Bowie/Eno 'Berlin' albums Heroes and Low, and also by the German pioneers Kraftwerk, Neu!, Cluster, and CAN (all of whom had been heavily influenced by The Beatles' Tomorrow Never Knows). Basically invented the Chemical Brothers thirty years before they recorded music.

One need look no further than The Beatles for examples of classic electronic music techniques and analog synthesis in rock music. On "Tomorrow Never Knows" The Beatles constructed a layer of looped sounds and played them backwards, forward, and sped up. The psychedelic lyrics, the low, repeating rumbling bass and heavy drums, the tape looped-sounds; all hallmarks of what is now called "Trip Hop" and much of today's Modern music. Once again, the Beatles were decades ahead of their time. Oh yeah before the Silver Apples by more than a year.

"Revolution #9 is contructed by using sampling and looping again in popular music album.

2/9/2009 View
Best Composers (All Genres) Of All Time

I have in the past in a cordial way disputed these generic lists that are obviously influenced by Piero Scaruffi. I highly doubt he either knows or cared to find out how unusual their songs were at the time or how different than they were from American groups. Everyone has their opinions and that's fine. I point out the Beatles were not only known for their melodies but their chord usage. (With The Beatles) have very unusual use of chords at the time. "It Won't Be Long", "Not A Second Time", and "Don't Bother Me" all have those bitchin' chords going on behind these songs. That is what the guitar players were noticing in 1964. The first thing that was noticed by Dylan, McGuinn, Richards and others was their chord usage.

It was by Rubber Soul given the landscape of musical influences available to the Beatles, what’s the logical precedent for “Eleanor Rigby” or “I Am the Walrus” or “Golden Slumbers” or “Nowhere Man” or “Penny Lane” or “Across the Universe” or the entire Sgt. Pepper album? ? Each generation’s most popular musicians, from Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Bob Dylan, the Rolling Stones, and Led Zeppelin there are a traceable progression to their musical development, a discernible link with what came before. What I am saying is I don't care if you think there better songwriters or composers than the Beatles. The Beatles were not just a bunch of great melodists a common mistake Scarrufi people makes.

What about Ray Davies, Brian Wilson, Pete Townshend, and Elliot Smith? Frank Zappa not really a great mainstream songwriter but his compositions makes many of the people on your list look like child play.

2/9/2009 View
My Top Rock Songs

Zappa vocal harmonies on Freak Out sounds like a joke attempt at trying to sing do Doo-wop. It's no match for the Beatles exquisite vocal harmonies on "Here There and Everywhere". This is actually hilarious. Stripped down “Yesterday” of it’s strings classical influences are there without it.

Have your opinion but the Beatles being described as a good pop band it like calling Hendrix a good guitarist. Most level headed people call them the greatest pop band that happen to play rock music. Hey man you are a funny person right at it's musical core still classical musicians like Leonard Bernstein and folkies like Dylan and McGuinn commented on the uniqueness of the Beatles music. That has nothing do with popularity. No one ever comments on the Stones or the Backstreet Boys chord progressions. So really man get over it.

Some comments on the Beatles when they were just mostly a guitar, bass and drum band

The Beatles were why we turned from a jug band into a rock 'n' roll band," said Bob Weir. "What we saw them doing was impossibly attractive. ...

Brian Wilson. Impressed by the consistent quality and variety of the tracks on the Beatles’ Rubber Soul, he wanted to move beyond singles and surf music toward ‘a new type of sophisticated-feeling music.

It can be said that Rubber Soul marked sophisticated-feeling music or helped put it on the map.

The same Scarziod mentality that is more radical is the more experimental. Have you actually listened to tracks like "Love You To". “Tomorrow Never Knows” harmonically is based on one chord Indian drone from a tamboura. It goes against all Western Music thinking both tracks, Not even the Velvet Underground was doing that in 1966. The Beatles were popular but they actually earned it and they could have stand pat and do the same type of music. They moved on and experimented. Hindsight my butt they did their share of pop songs but they experimented.

Find me jazz, rock and pop musicians creating tracks like “Tomorrow Never Knows”, “Love You To”, “Norwegian Wood”, and “A Day in the Life”. Heck even a track like “Think For Yourself” with it’s distorted bass track imitating a riff driven figure throughout it’s track would be hard to find precedent. Since the Beatles were really rock act go find examples for me. If you don’t like the Beatles that’s fine but to say the Beatles talent came on marketability is plain ignorant. They were not the most covered musicians in the last 50 years on marketability. If that’s the case then were are all those Backstreet Boys and NSYNC covers out today. Please LOL. Like Bob Dylan said don’t comment on something you don’t know nothing about.

1/3/2009 View
Every style of music ever created (about 95% complete)

I commend Darktremor for taking the time and doing the research. The styles I picked are known musical styles that are the bottom line. I don't agree with all this labeling either come on Jap-Rap, Avant Rio, OI! it's silly to me so I agree with Odyesesus.

I agree certain things are important to differentiate. Many artists approach are different. Examples like the Singer/ Songwriter and Album Rock.
The Singer Songwriter is different from solo artists who were not songwriters.

Album Rock is an art form and it differentiates it from singles artists.

I think these musical styles are legit. Raga Rock and most definitely the Art Song.
One "Eight Miles High" is raga rock yeah it does not have a sitar on the song but it's a song influenced by Indian Music. It's different than its genuine application of mode, drone and instrumentation of say the Beatles "Love You To". Art song is just music that is classically influenced music with vocals with string accompinant or piano. It’s different than saying using classical music with rock music.

My thinking Odyesesus is most rock music today fall under these core musical styles. Things like Garage Revival, Britpop and most rock styles comes from these musical styles. Of course their exceptions like Rap-Rock

Rock & Roll- 50's rock rockabilly, Chuck Berry, Bill Haley which branched into rock music etc
Rock Music- basically classic rock to today
Pop/Rock- The Beatles, Beach Boys etc
Folk Rock- Beatles/Byrd’s/Dylan
Jangle Pop- Searchers/Beatles/Byrd’s
Country Rock- mid 60's mixing country elements with rock
Blues Rock- the Stones, Animals, Yardbirds etc
Hard Rock- The Kinks, The Who and a host of others
Psychedelic Rock- San Francisco Sound and their British Counterparts
Heavy Metal- Hendrix, Cream, Black Sabbath etc
Power Pop- The Beatles, the Who
Progressive Rock/Art Rock- 1966-1969 which has branched off to numerous styles
World Music- Rock Music that merges music from other countries like Jamaica or India. "Norwegian Wood" "Eight Miles High" Kashmir
Experimental Rock or Avant Rock- The Velvet Underground, Frank Zappa, the Monks, Beefhart some Beatles
Garage Rock- which many people think this branched into Punk Rock

6/17/2008 View
Every style of music ever created (about 95% complete)

Darktremor I apologize you have some of what I choose. I would put Country Rock as a subgenre. Rockabilly is more of a rock and roll form. Country Rock came out of the mid 60's. www.settingthewoodsonfire.com/2008/03/who-inevnted-country-rock.html

6/16/2008 View
Every style of music ever created (about 95% complete)

An art song is a vocal music composition, usually written for one singer with piano accompaniment or string quartet, Eleanor Rigby" is included and considered comparable to art songs (lieder) by the great composers. This was common genre before rock and roll. Eleanor Rigby and Yesterday are examples of chamber pop which should be included also. The Beatles and George Martin used small, chamber-like groups that accompanied classical musical influence example string quartet, rather than the larger orchestrations of some American pop and the Beach Boys Pet Sounds or Phil Spector. georgegraham.com/reviews/pelletir.html -

Composers of art songs you might have heard of them

Franz Joseph Haydn
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Franz Schubert
Hugo Wolf
Gustav Mahler
Ludwig van Beethoven
Johann Carl Gottfried Loewe

British Psychedelia- was quite different than its American counterpart. In general, British psychedelia was either more whimsical or artily experimental than its American counterpart, plus it tended to work within the pop song structure. This is not a hard-and-fast rule, however. No matter how many concise, pop singles they released, Pink Floyd still stretched out dramatically on stage, taking songs into uncharted territory with each performance. However, these general rules do more or less apply, particularly to the studio recordings of British psychedelic acts. All Music Guide

Album Rock Album Rock artists together was their dedication to the album as the vehicle for their music, plus their reliance on rock as the foundation of their music. That means album rock consisted of everything from heavy metal and Southern blues-rockers to prog-rock and singer/songwriters with supporting rock bands. It was fairly diverse, actually, but they all shared a certain artistic aesthetic and little bit of indulgence, plus their constant exposure on FM radio. Classic Rock many of its core song were huge hit singles also like "Satisfaction", "House of the Rising Sun" "Hotel California' all number one songs well at least in America.

Raga Rock is music that is Indian ifnluenced rock like 'Eight Miles High" but is not traditional.
Dylan is maybe the main person in the singer/songwriter genre. I did not see Psychedelic Pop or Indie Pop. Avant Rio is described for Zappa early stuff like Lumpy Gravy.

6/16/2008 View
Every style of music ever created (about 95% complete)

All these styles are listed in All Music Guide or Wikipedia. These are well known subgenres or full genres in music

Merseybeat now its called Beat Music
Avant Pop
Psychedelic Pop
Drone Music or Drone Rock
Musique Concrete
Art Song
British Invasion
Psychedelic Folk
Arena Rock
Aleatoric music
Indian Rock
Symphonic Prog
Indo-Prog/Raga Rock
Album Rock
British Psychedelia
Indie Pop
Hard Rock
Modal Music- popular in jazz before taking off into rock music
Chamber Pop
Alternative Pop/Rock
British Trad Rock -ALL Music Guide

6/16/2008 View