hmmm, i was not going to make one. i made this one because everyone complains on this site about how bad some of these albums are, does anyone think that his jazz selections are bad? they seem to be similar to what most anyone would say are the best. which ones do you think are overrated?
well i haven't listened to the free and fusion jazz stuff yet (ornette coleman, sun ra, etc.) so i can't talk about those ones yet, but I think Dexter Gordon's Go would be the first one which comes to mind (he rates it at around 8.5, whilst i think its like a low 7.5). Also Saxophone Collosus is a bit boring... and Descent Into Maelstrom, although a very early (he's probably thinking about influence?) free jazz-like album isn't exactly my meaning of "great". i still have a lot more to explore on that list... but this is what i think atm. well i was thinking that perhaps some people would think that Black Saint and Sinner Lady is horrible and so on.
what are your thoughts about that list?
Go and Saxophone Colossus are albums that everyone loves (except for you and I - I don't get the fuss about Saxophone Colossus either), not really Scaruffi picks per se. I'm much more of a fan of "avant-garde" jazz, and Scaruffi's picks here are sometimes more interesting and controversial. He also gives a not-bad (even 7/10?) appraisal of Kenny G's Duotones, which I admittedly haven't heard.
well Go and Saxophone Colossus are 47 and 32 respectively on his "100 greatest jazz albums", so i think they are somewhat his favourite jazz albums.
can you give an example of his interesting and controversial choice of avant-garde jazz albums? i don't think they're that controversial. from what i've read, his choices, for example Charles Mingus, Albert Ayler, Cecil Taylor and so on are everyone's favourites in avant-garde jazz.
I don't deny that they're his favourites as well, but I mean they're not "Scaruffi picks" insofar as Astral Weeks - which all critics like - isn't either.
Looking right at the top of the list, relatively-speaking you have Atlantis and Escalator Over the Hill which are way more controversial than the usual jazz picks that everyone is supposed to like. I mean, there are quite a few people who actually don't like those albums. And in general there are a bunch of albums made after the sixties which is usually when a lot of critics stop caring about jazz music. Plenty out of that pile is out-of-print stuff with only a few ratings on RYM.
right i get what you mean for both
i think avant-garde jazz is definitely underrated, but i think within the circle there is a consensus of which are the best, and i believe Scaruffi reflects those ideas. perhaps atlantis and escalator over the hill are somewhat ignored, his other picks aren't really controversial (for example Black Saint and the Sinner Lady and A Love Supreme come up as "Charles Mingus'/John Coltrane's best album and sometimes even on the "all-time list").
anyways cool that you agree with me on Go and Saxophone Colossus, coz normally i would go with Scaruffi but here i just think he's doing it in terms of "representing jazz" and so on, which i guess is fine but i just don't agree with this idea, that an album which "summarizes this and that genre" and so on makes it a great album. do you agree?
Jazz music is where Scaruffi is a bit more "boring" in his all-time list compared to rock music. In classical music and (in its heyday) jazz music, Scaruffi is of the opinion that the cream eventually rose to the top of the critical pile. Whereas in rock music obviously there are many differences between his idea of the greatest and AllMusic's idea of the greatest. Though of course there are differences, mainly in the area of "avant-garde jazz" which is what I'm mainly interested in anyway when it comes to jazz at all.
I can't really speculate on how much Scaruffi enjoys listening to Saxophone Colossus, I'll assume he does but he also has an apparent pretense of his best-rated albums also being the ones that he sees as reflecting key moments in music history. After all, he claims to be a "music historian" as opposed to a mere "critic".
i have not listened to jazz in awhile but i think it is spot on for the most part. i like Spiritual Unity and Communications more than Black Saint & the Sinner Lady but that is very very minor, it is still GREAT (probably #5).
i would bet that most everyone, even on this site who hate scaruffi for his "rock" selections would agree with his jazz selections - they are similar to the vast majority of what jazz critics would pick, or so i assume from how well the top albums are covered elsewhere.
yeah i guess
i think its really the more ambitious and alternative stuff in jazz, like spiritual unity, for example, (which i also found very interesting on first listening) where other people might have different ideas
Going by Scaruffi's scale with my own views/tastes/standards:
Trout Mask Replica - Captain Beefheart - 9.5/10
Rock Bottom - Robert Wyatt - 7.5/10
Faust - Faust - 9.5/10
The Velvet Underground & Nico - The Velvet Underground - 8.5/10
The Doors - The Doors - 7/10
Hosianna Mantra - Popol Vuh - 8.5/10
The Modern Dance - Pere Ubu - 7.5/10
Twin Infinitives - Royal Trux - 9/10
Fare Forward Voyagers - John Fahey - 8/10
Desertshore - Nico - 7.5/10
Lorca - Tim Buckley - 8/10
Parable of Arable Land - Red Krayola - 9/10
Irrlicht - Klaus Schulze - 8/10
The Good Son - Nick Cave - 6/10
Geek The Girl - Lisa Germano - 8/10
Good - Morphine - 8/10
Blonde On Blonde - Bob Dylan - 7/10
Neu! - Neu! - 9/10
Nail - Foetus - 6/10
Suicide - Suicide - 8/10
Astral Weeks - Van Morrison - 9/10
Not Available - The Residents - 8/10
Y - Pop Group - 8/10
Lullaby Land - Vampire Rodents - 8/10
Zen Arcade - Hüsker Dü - 7.5/10
Third Ear Band (Elements) - Third Ear Band - 7.5/10
The River - Bruce Springsteen - 6/10
Well Oiled - Hash Jar Tempo - 8/10
Psychic...Powerless...Another Man’s Sac - Butthole Surfers - 7/10
Third - Soft Machine - 8/10
Slow Deep And Hard - Type O Negative - 8.5/10
Uncle Meat - The Mothers of Invention/Frank Zappa - 7.5/10
Double Nickels On The Dime - The Minutemen - 8/10
Repeater - Fugazi - 8/10
Yerself Is Steam - Mercury Rev - 9/10
Fire Of Love - Gun Club - 7/10
Down Colorful Hill - Red House Painters - 7/10
Spiderland - Slint - 8/10
Loveless - My Bloody Valentine - 7.5/10
White Light/White Heat - The Velvet Underground - 7/10
Safe As Milk - Captain Beefheart - 7/10
So most of these I agree are at least really cool, even if they aren't my favourite albums, and yes a bunch of my all-time favourites are indeed there. Obviously we have some differences but the only serious disagreements me and Scaruffi have on his top albums list are on Springsteen, Cave and Foetus. I can kind of see the appeal of Nail though, because Thirlwell at least had an original shtick even if it was a shtick. I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Cave for the time being because even though I didn't really like that album, I haven't listened to it much and his style has not really clicked for me in general.
In the end I voted for The River because compared to a lot of the albums on there it's ultimately a lightweight, light-hearted work and I really don't see how it built on Springsteen's legacy apart from a few catchy tunes. It was a fun album to put a few spins to, especially in the days when I cared more about lyrics, but c'mon. Some of the songs on the second disc are just lame. Unlike Cave and Foetus, I more or less agree with Scaruffi on the rest of Springsteen's discography.
has anyone purchased or know anyone who has purchased Tim Buckley's Starsailor from iTunes? all the copies i own has a digital imperfection at the 1:53 mark of "Come Here Woman" and i was wondering if that is on the iTunes version as well. or, does anyone know when the legal disputes are going to settle and Starsailor will be able to be purchased once again on CD?
yeah, gong is an 8.5, but it is technically a 9 only because scaruffi has yet to take it off of the main "greatest albums of all times" page and the graphic version. that shows some conviction to it being a 9 (enough for this poll anyway). i meant to put an * next to it.
It might help you to love Gong more if you tried listening to Flying Teapot, Not Available and Piper at the Gates of Dawn in rotation. Also, if you haven't already, play it on a strong system. A lot of nuance and emotion is released with higher wattage.
are you wanting me to listen to them more than once or just in order? and what order? i am going to listen to the other two albums and i thought i might throw in Flying Teapot at the end to see if it can magically jump up; if not, i can always move on to whatever else i was going to do.
i am probably not going to listen to those in rotation because i am going back through EVERYTHING on my external and that will take years (5 at least) to get through it all and i cannot afford the loss of time on something i have already made up my mind about anyhow (i make too many detours with Blonde On Blonde and Astral Weeks and...). every other 9 i liked or respected at first, but Flying Teapot seemed average to me (though decently interesting for nothing else than the quirky English-ness of it) and it still does. i listened to it today and nothing. i do not own, nor do i have access to, a powerful stereo. i will take your word on it with my experience with $20,000+ Lynn stereos - they make anything at least a little bit better, and for intricate symphonies like my dad listened to, they explode every little detail beyond comprehension virtually recomposing the symphony in real time; but, those days are passed and the best i can do is $15 headphones (headphones break too often to buy nice ones) and crappy laptop speakers!!!sorry.
I think it would be either Down Colorful Hill or The River. That said, I fully expect these to come around sooner or later, the reason being that all the others have for me. Also, for short periods of time over the last year I've already considered each at or near the level of 8.75-9/10, and I can feel myself getting closer and closer to feeling this permanently when I listen to them here and there.
As a note, I feel the most criminally underrated album on here by most Scaruffists seems to be Well Oiled. I highly recommend playing it on a strong system (300+ watts) where it can fill the room, and just letting it overwhelm you. Believe it or not, to me it is quite clearly even more profound and powerful than Branca's The Ascension (which gets a heck of a lot more love, not that it doesn't deserve the praise).
I wouldn't be surprised at all if I soon agree with you. I already think it's amazing, but it still has a little ways to go before I love it as much as Scaruffi.
1. "24" – 6:47 - Moody, dark ballad. It effectively emotes the agony over the concept of aging that it seems to aim to unleash. Overall creative and emotional gist is done much more effectively by the next track.
2. "Medicine Bottle" – 9:49 - Pretty harrowing stuff. Increases in intensity at a good enough pace to prevent the listener form getting "used to" it. Build on a suspsenseful, echoey riff.
3. "Down Colorful Hill" – 10:51 - Captures the very essense of the "slo-core" style. Slow, and deeply sad song that lasts forever. Repetitive martial drumming with just the right about of aggression. Perhaps the most emotionally powerful vocal parts are at the beginning though (maybe that's just because it has the title, the specific words of which are thankfully harder to sing too schmaltzily)
4. "Japanese to English" – 4:42 - Bit of a depature in that it's more poppy, with a clever college-rock styled chorus. Vague raga feel maybe?
5. "Lord Kill the Pain" – 6:03 - Another depature in that it's "cow-punk" styled. Not well verse in that style so I don't know how it may or may not stand out. Drowns in a sea of noisiness at the end.
6. "Michael" – 5:23 - Kind of a less masterful blend of the first half of the album without all the angst. Some of the guitar passages are in the 70's singer-songwriter mold. One dramatic moment that comes out of nowhere breaks that feel up.
The album has a production style similar to the Pixies' "Come On Pilgrm" EP, also from the 4AD label. It's often described as "airy".
Very nice review. I think the most major aspect to appreciating the album on the level Scaruffi does is to recognize and connect to the emotional apparencies that combine throughout the album (and I think this is what throws a lot of people off about it, myself included): each song is not only draining and depressed and in the process of "dying", but simultaneously a "celebration". I think once this is fully realized by the listener its masterpiece status is virtually a given. So
far it's only happened for me fleetingly, but I am aware of it, so I think I'm on the verge with the album.
yeah, but what about a track like "Phallus Dei" which is ranked much higher and is a much larger portion of its album yet the album is a 7.5 and not a 9. he has to think highly about the other tracks on the album to give such a higher rating, or think VERY lowly of the others on Phallus Dei. it seems odd to me, but he wrote at the top that the page is outdated....
I don't really hate any of these, but I think the Morphine album is the most boring. Runner up would probably be the Gun Club one. Neither are bad, but I can't see them as among the 40 greatest albums ever.
i like both of those more than Flying Teapot which i revisited today to no avail. i am actually curious to see how many votes go for Nail, Well Oiled, and Fare Forward Voyagers. especially since TMR and Loveless have already received a vote apiece!?!
are you going to make one for jazz too?
hmmm, i was not going to make one. i made this one because everyone complains on this site about how bad some of these albums are, does anyone think that his jazz selections are bad? they seem to be similar to what most anyone would say are the best. which ones do you think are overrated?
well i haven't listened to the free and fusion jazz stuff yet (ornette coleman, sun ra, etc.) so i can't talk about those ones yet, but I think Dexter Gordon's Go would be the first one which comes to mind (he rates it at around 8.5, whilst i think its like a low 7.5). Also Saxophone Collosus is a bit boring... and Descent Into Maelstrom, although a very early (he's probably thinking about influence?) free jazz-like album isn't exactly my meaning of "great". i still have a lot more to explore on that list... but this is what i think atm. well i was thinking that perhaps some people would think that Black Saint and Sinner Lady is horrible and so on.
what are your thoughts about that list?
Go and Saxophone Colossus are albums that everyone loves (except for you and I - I don't get the fuss about Saxophone Colossus either), not really Scaruffi picks per se. I'm much more of a fan of "avant-garde" jazz, and Scaruffi's picks here are sometimes more interesting and controversial. He also gives a not-bad (even 7/10?) appraisal of Kenny G's Duotones, which I admittedly haven't heard.
well Go and Saxophone Colossus are 47 and 32 respectively on his "100 greatest jazz albums", so i think they are somewhat his favourite jazz albums.
can you give an example of his interesting and controversial choice of avant-garde jazz albums? i don't think they're that controversial. from what i've read, his choices, for example Charles Mingus, Albert Ayler, Cecil Taylor and so on are everyone's favourites in avant-garde jazz.
I don't deny that they're his favourites as well, but I mean they're not "Scaruffi picks" insofar as Astral Weeks - which all critics like - isn't either.
Looking right at the top of the list, relatively-speaking you have Atlantis and Escalator Over the Hill which are way more controversial than the usual jazz picks that everyone is supposed to like. I mean, there are quite a few people who actually don't like those albums. And in general there are a bunch of albums made after the sixties which is usually when a lot of critics stop caring about jazz music. Plenty out of that pile is out-of-print stuff with only a few ratings on RYM.
right i get what you mean for both
i think avant-garde jazz is definitely underrated, but i think within the circle there is a consensus of which are the best, and i believe Scaruffi reflects those ideas. perhaps atlantis and escalator over the hill are somewhat ignored, his other picks aren't really controversial (for example Black Saint and the Sinner Lady and A Love Supreme come up as "Charles Mingus'/John Coltrane's best album and sometimes even on the "all-time list").
anyways cool that you agree with me on Go and Saxophone Colossus, coz normally i would go with Scaruffi but here i just think he's doing it in terms of "representing jazz" and so on, which i guess is fine but i just don't agree with this idea, that an album which "summarizes this and that genre" and so on makes it a great album. do you agree?
Jazz music is where Scaruffi is a bit more "boring" in his all-time list compared to rock music. In classical music and (in its heyday) jazz music, Scaruffi is of the opinion that the cream eventually rose to the top of the critical pile. Whereas in rock music obviously there are many differences between his idea of the greatest and AllMusic's idea of the greatest. Though of course there are differences, mainly in the area of "avant-garde jazz" which is what I'm mainly interested in anyway when it comes to jazz at all.
I can't really speculate on how much Scaruffi enjoys listening to Saxophone Colossus, I'll assume he does but he also has an apparent pretense of his best-rated albums also being the ones that he sees as reflecting key moments in music history. After all, he claims to be a "music historian" as opposed to a mere "critic".
what are your favorite Jazz albums? especially those underrated by scaruffi, or not at all.
i have not listened to jazz in awhile but i think it is spot on for the most part. i like Spiritual Unity and Communications more than Black Saint & the Sinner Lady but that is very very minor, it is still GREAT (probably #5).
i would bet that most everyone, even on this site who hate scaruffi for his "rock" selections would agree with his jazz selections - they are similar to the vast majority of what jazz critics would pick, or so i assume from how well the top albums are covered elsewhere.
yeah i guess
i think its really the more ambitious and alternative stuff in jazz, like spiritual unity, for example, (which i also found very interesting on first listening) where other people might have different ideas
I haven't heard a lot of these, but I'm not a fan of The River. It seemed pretty generic to me.
Going by Scaruffi's scale with my own views/tastes/standards:
Trout Mask Replica - Captain Beefheart - 9.5/10
Rock Bottom - Robert Wyatt - 7.5/10
Faust - Faust - 9.5/10
The Velvet Underground & Nico - The Velvet Underground - 8.5/10
The Doors - The Doors - 7/10
Hosianna Mantra - Popol Vuh - 8.5/10
The Modern Dance - Pere Ubu - 7.5/10
Twin Infinitives - Royal Trux - 9/10
Fare Forward Voyagers - John Fahey - 8/10
Desertshore - Nico - 7.5/10
Lorca - Tim Buckley - 8/10
Parable of Arable Land - Red Krayola - 9/10
Irrlicht - Klaus Schulze - 8/10
The Good Son - Nick Cave - 6/10
Geek The Girl - Lisa Germano - 8/10
Good - Morphine - 8/10
Blonde On Blonde - Bob Dylan - 7/10
Neu! - Neu! - 9/10
Nail - Foetus - 6/10
Suicide - Suicide - 8/10
Astral Weeks - Van Morrison - 9/10
Not Available - The Residents - 8/10
Y - Pop Group - 8/10
Lullaby Land - Vampire Rodents - 8/10
Zen Arcade - Hüsker Dü - 7.5/10
Third Ear Band (Elements) - Third Ear Band - 7.5/10
The River - Bruce Springsteen - 6/10
Well Oiled - Hash Jar Tempo - 8/10
Psychic...Powerless...Another Man’s Sac - Butthole Surfers - 7/10
Third - Soft Machine - 8/10
Slow Deep And Hard - Type O Negative - 8.5/10
Uncle Meat - The Mothers of Invention/Frank Zappa - 7.5/10
Double Nickels On The Dime - The Minutemen - 8/10
Repeater - Fugazi - 8/10
Yerself Is Steam - Mercury Rev - 9/10
Fire Of Love - Gun Club - 7/10
Down Colorful Hill - Red House Painters - 7/10
Spiderland - Slint - 8/10
Loveless - My Bloody Valentine - 7.5/10
White Light/White Heat - The Velvet Underground - 7/10
Safe As Milk - Captain Beefheart - 7/10
So most of these I agree are at least really cool, even if they aren't my favourite albums, and yes a bunch of my all-time favourites are indeed there. Obviously we have some differences but the only serious disagreements me and Scaruffi have on his top albums list are on Springsteen, Cave and Foetus. I can kind of see the appeal of Nail though, because Thirlwell at least had an original shtick even if it was a shtick. I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Cave for the time being because even though I didn't really like that album, I haven't listened to it much and his style has not really clicked for me in general.
In the end I voted for The River because compared to a lot of the albums on there it's ultimately a lightweight, light-hearted work and I really don't see how it built on Springsteen's legacy apart from a few catchy tunes. It was a fun album to put a few spins to, especially in the days when I cared more about lyrics, but c'mon. Some of the songs on the second disc are just lame. Unlike Cave and Foetus, I more or less agree with Scaruffi on the rest of Springsteen's discography.
has anyone purchased or know anyone who has purchased Tim Buckley's Starsailor from iTunes? all the copies i own has a digital imperfection at the 1:53 mark of "Come Here Woman" and i was wondering if that is on the iTunes version as well. or, does anyone know when the legal disputes are going to settle and Starsailor will be able to be purchased once again on CD?
God I wish I did. I love that album
gong is an 8.5
my vote was Fare Forward Voyagers
yeah, gong is an 8.5, but it is technically a 9 only because scaruffi has yet to take it off of the main "greatest albums of all times" page and the graphic version. that shows some conviction to it being a 9 (enough for this poll anyway). i meant to put an * next to it.
It might help you to love Gong more if you tried listening to Flying Teapot, Not Available and Piper at the Gates of Dawn in rotation. Also, if you haven't already, play it on a strong system. A lot of nuance and emotion is released with higher wattage.
are you wanting me to listen to them more than once or just in order? and what order? i am going to listen to the other two albums and i thought i might throw in Flying Teapot at the end to see if it can magically jump up; if not, i can always move on to whatever else i was going to do.
i am probably not going to listen to those in rotation because i am going back through EVERYTHING on my external and that will take years (5 at least) to get through it all and i cannot afford the loss of time on something i have already made up my mind about anyhow (i make too many detours with Blonde On Blonde and Astral Weeks and...). every other 9 i liked or respected at first, but Flying Teapot seemed average to me (though decently interesting for nothing else than the quirky English-ness of it) and it still does. i listened to it today and nothing. i do not own, nor do i have access to, a powerful stereo. i will take your word on it with my experience with $20,000+ Lynn stereos - they make anything at least a little bit better, and for intricate symphonies like my dad listened to, they explode every little detail beyond comprehension virtually recomposing the symphony in real time; but, those days are passed and the best i can do is $15 headphones (headphones break too often to buy nice ones) and crappy laptop speakers!!!sorry.
No biggie. You should only play it per my suggestion if you want to, and have the resources/equipment available.
i'm listening to The River in protest of this poll
I think it would be either Down Colorful Hill or The River. That said, I fully expect these to come around sooner or later, the reason being that all the others have for me. Also, for short periods of time over the last year I've already considered each at or near the level of 8.75-9/10, and I can feel myself getting closer and closer to feeling this permanently when I listen to them here and there.
As a note, I feel the most criminally underrated album on here by most Scaruffists seems to be Well Oiled. I highly recommend playing it on a strong system (300+ watts) where it can fill the room, and just letting it overwhelm you. Believe it or not, to me it is quite clearly even more profound and powerful than Branca's The Ascension (which gets a heck of a lot more love, not that it doesn't deserve the praise).
the underrated album here is down colorful hill!
I wouldn't be surprised at all if I soon agree with you. I already think it's amazing, but it still has a little ways to go before I love it as much as Scaruffi.
My quick review of the tracks:
1. "24" – 6:47 - Moody, dark ballad. It effectively emotes the agony over the concept of aging that it seems to aim to unleash. Overall creative and emotional gist is done much more effectively by the next track.
2. "Medicine Bottle" – 9:49 - Pretty harrowing stuff. Increases in intensity at a good enough pace to prevent the listener form getting "used to" it. Build on a suspsenseful, echoey riff.
3. "Down Colorful Hill" – 10:51 - Captures the very essense of the "slo-core" style. Slow, and deeply sad song that lasts forever. Repetitive martial drumming with just the right about of aggression. Perhaps the most emotionally powerful vocal parts are at the beginning though (maybe that's just because it has the title, the specific words of which are thankfully harder to sing too schmaltzily)
4. "Japanese to English" – 4:42 - Bit of a depature in that it's more poppy, with a clever college-rock styled chorus. Vague raga feel maybe?
5. "Lord Kill the Pain" – 6:03 - Another depature in that it's "cow-punk" styled. Not well verse in that style so I don't know how it may or may not stand out. Drowns in a sea of noisiness at the end.
6. "Michael" – 5:23 - Kind of a less masterful blend of the first half of the album without all the angst. Some of the guitar passages are in the 70's singer-songwriter mold. One dramatic moment that comes out of nowhere breaks that feel up.
The album has a production style similar to the Pixies' "Come On Pilgrm" EP, also from the 4AD label. It's often described as "airy".
not bad. i have come across a new track running that transforms the album into a new, more enjoyable, experience for me:
1. "24"
2. "Japanese To English"
3. "Medicine Bottle"
4. "Michael"
5. "Lord Kill The Pain"
6. "Down Colorful Hill"
i never liked the order of the tracks. after doing this, the album flows better tho these ears.
Very nice review. I think the most major aspect to appreciating the album on the level Scaruffi does is to recognize and connect to the emotional apparencies that combine throughout the album (and I think this is what throws a lot of people off about it, myself included): each song is not only draining and depressed and in the process of "dying", but simultaneously a "celebration". I think once this is fully realized by the listener its masterpiece status is virtually a given. So
far it's only happened for me fleetingly, but I am aware of it, so I think I'm on the verge with the album.
i think a big reason it has such a high score is because of track 2, which appears here: http://www.scaruffi.com/music/songs.html
yeah, but what about a track like "Phallus Dei" which is ranked much higher and is a much larger portion of its album yet the album is a 7.5 and not a 9. he has to think highly about the other tracks on the album to give such a higher rating, or think VERY lowly of the others on Phallus Dei. it seems odd to me, but he wrote at the top that the page is outdated....
I don't really hate any of these, but I think the Morphine album is the most boring. Runner up would probably be the Gun Club one. Neither are bad, but I can't see them as among the 40 greatest albums ever.
Cool idea. I hope some RYMers come over here and vote.
I voted for Down Colorful Hill. The other possibility was River.
i like both of those more than Flying Teapot which i revisited today to no avail. i am actually curious to see how many votes go for Nail, Well Oiled, and Fare Forward Voyagers. especially since TMR and Loveless have already received a vote apiece!?!