Book you must all read

  • STUPID WHITE MEN - Okay, I'm too lazy to make a real list out of this one, but you've got to read this book, regardless. If only to find out that the 2000 election WAS stolen. Not hanging chad's stolen, but Richard Nixon impeachment-worthy stolen. In fact more impeachment worthy. Poor old Dick looks like a positive saint compared to the kind of shenanigans perpetrated by George W., Jeb and Katherine Harris. Gore won Florida. Gore won the election. Now Bush and the Republicans have the country under their boot.I'm not saying all Republicans are bad - John McCain seems like a very fine man for one thing. But read this book and see if it doesn't make you sick and angry and ready to impeach Bush.

I suppose the fact that an idiot left wing liberal wrote this book didn't effect the conclusion of it has ever crossed your mind...........

So is Moore in particular an idiot, and also, incidentally, a left-wing liberal? Or are all left-wing liberals idiots? Are there any right-wing liberals?

Moore in particular is definitively a fat moron and he (yes i am biased on this) is a left-wing liberal to boot, which I generally don't care for. No not all left wing liberals are idiots, most are just naive about human nature. As for right wing liberals.... none come to mind

I'm curious... Are you using 'fat' in any metaphorical sense, or do you honestly think his weight has anything to do with the discussion here? Or can you just not resist a little ad hominem?

I was truly hoping you would have something more insightful to bring to the party here. Me, I have some serious problems with Moore, as entertaining as he can be, so I was quite disappointed to read your response.

Shalom, y'all!

L. Bangs

Yeah, from what little I know of a few Listologist's politics, this *seems* to be a rather left-leaning site, so it might be interesting to have a little clean debate. Somebody could create a "Politics" custom genre, but perhaps that's a can of worms we don't to open. Then again, we're all adults here (figuratively, if not literally), and I have good "no personal abuse" rules, so maybe it'd be fine.

Getting back to Moore, while I'm squarely in the demographic that should love Bowling for Columbine (which I have not seen yet), I've read about too many distortions of the truth in that movie (some of which certainly seem damning, but that I have not cross-checked yet). Definitely worrisome (which is not to say that right-wingers are above such tactics).

Anyhoo, I don't disagree with Rush because he's fat... :-)

Eh, I think that politics thing is a bad idea. There's a difference between me insulting your favorite movie and your political party. I've made the mistake of debating the situation in Israel with some friends (don't get me started), and it usually just leads to bitterness.

I think if we do talk politics here, the key is to discuss and question each other genuinely, as opposed to debate.

I'm on a site called, and let me tell you, it can get ugly over there on some of the political and debate communities, even on communities where people ostensibly believe in the same things.

However, I don't think we can ever solve the root problem (our antagonistic attitudes towards those holding other views or the views themselves) without practice. I think discussing politics is good practice for relating to each other as loving human beings, when we do it consciously, with the goal of improving ourselves and the world in mind. It is very hard to do, but can be done.

Last time I checked through the listology and wrote the above list of one item, I was very intense politically. I had just read Moore's book and was all fired up. While I still hold basically the same worldview now as then, I have calmed down a great deal and don't feel as much of a need to constantly assail people with my beliefs. So I was kind of surprised, bemused even, to come back this morning and find all this controversy resulting from one of my lists.

Suffice to say, I'd love to discuss politics here as in other places, but yes, it's difficult, and I certainly respect those who would prefer not to go there!

- Jen

After you start a 'Politics' section, maybe you can create a 'Religion' section. ;)

Alright, I confess, I'd love to see a great political section here, but hey, I'm a cynic, and I rarely find too many discussion areas for modern politics that don't turn vicious and personal before too long. Therefore, I'm a bit iffy on the idea.

I don't really have too much of a problem if politics enter here as part of an arts-oriented discussion (if everybody stays nice and semi-focused of course) - to some degree, it might be unavoidable, especially with works like Moore's efforts - but I'm a little worried about an entire section being devoted just to politics.

But I'm only one voice of the many here. Maybe most would welcome it. Me, if I got involved, I'm terrified too many posters would stop talking to me! :)

Shalom, y'all!

L. Bangs

"I rarely find too many discussion areas for modern politics that don't turn vicious and personal before too long"

"Me, if I got involved, I'm terrified too many posters would stop talking to me"

I agree. Besides, as you said, Jim, Listology is a pretty left-leaning site. So if we debate political issues, we would either have a lot of left-wingers agreeing, or if there is a right-winger or someone who disagrees with one aspect of left-wing philosophy, it will seem like we're ganging up on that one person.

"Anyone under thirty who is not a democrat is a cynic. Anyone who is over thirty and is not a republican is a fool" mark Twain

AJ you have a few years left before George Bush makes a little more sense.. (if that is possible)

Eh, I think I'll remain an optimistic democratic fool, thanks very much.

I thought that was a Churchill quote, and that the quote was, "Anyone who is not a liberal at twenty has no heart; anyone who is not a conservative at forty has no brains."

I'm not sure that quote would line up the way it is meant during Twain's lifetime. I can look this up when I get home. Goodness knows, I may be wrong.

Of course, none of this should be read as my endorsement or disavowment of the sentiment behind the quote... As a man right at 30, I guess I have a right to not make a public confession, eh? :)

Shalom, y'all!

L. Bangs

I think you're right about the quote, if not the person who said it (I'm not sure about who said it, but yours sounds more right, as I think they were British.)

Did Twain use political parties, or did he say liberal and conservative? I think at the time the complexions of those parties was very different.

Hell, the complexion of the two words "liberal" and "conservative" was very different at the time, and didn't even mean quite the same thing.

I hope to be a liberal all my life. A radical even. If being an idealist with a pocketbook and heart open to any who truly need my assistance makes me a fool, so be it.

The Fool is actually a rather revered card in the Tarot. Without his idealistic journey, we would never go forward!

- Jen

God is a Liberal? Does that mean he is fat too? And is that a bad thing or a good thing? I am so confused.

Politics and religion on listology... the horror.

I tend to think Moore is a blowhard who does more harm than good for some very worthy issues. Unfortunately self absorbition is not monopilized by any political or religious persusaion.

Politics and religion on listology... the horror.

Yeah, that probably about sums it up. :-) Leaving those topics to where they intersect with a given work of art is probably more on-topic for this site.

I DID actually create a politics custom genre on my last visit through here, but it never garnered any attention, nor did I expect it too.

I may update it with some polls, or a list of people I'd vote for in the next election, or greatest presidents or something like that.

I have no wish for the political discussions to get ugly here, however. I've seen things get really ugly over on Live Journal, another site I belong to, and I think it accomplishes little.

I had pretty much forgotten about my Moore post. I even considered deleting it as being old news, but wow, I guess it isn't! (:

- Jen

I'm curious on one point here, and that is, Why do you think left wingers are naive about human nature? What aspect of human nature are we missing in particular or to what issues does this apply?

Did you read the book?

I agree that this book is well worth reading. Very thought-provoking. It's possible he goes a bit far at times though.