It may not be too helpful, but I like JWN Sullivan's attempt at summarizing the late works of Beethoven:
"The chief characteristics of the fully mature Beethoven's attitude toward life are to be found in his realization of suffering and in his realization of the heroism of achievement. The character of life as suffering is an aspect that our modern civilization, mercifully for the great majority of people, does a great deal to obscure. Few men have the capacity fully to realize suffering as one of the great structural lines of living.
[...]
Beethoven does not communicate to us his perceptions or his experiences. He communicates to us the attitude based on them. We may share with him that unearthly state where the struggle ends and pain dissolves away, although we know but little of his struggle and have not experienced his pain. He lived in a universe richer than ours, in some ways better than ours and in some ways more terrible. And yet we recognize his universe and find his attitudes towards it prophetic of our own. It is indeed our own universe, but as experienced by a consciousness which is aware of aspects of which we have but dim and transitory glimpses."
Sullivan is obviously being a bit reductive, to listen to Op. 111--note by note--is to be exposed to something much more complex than a single attitude, but I think the above does a good job at accomplishing the heroic task of communicating what it is that makes Beethoven so great (although his remarks seem particularly applicable to the sonata's last, exultant movement). Beethoven's final works--the last symphony, the late sonatas and quartets, Missa Solemnis--are some of the greatest achievements of all time in my mind, it is incredible that after a productive life full of astonishing music--the concertos, the earlier symphonies, Fidelio, etc--he was still reaching new heights. I also listen to Kempff's performance.
AfterHours, what do you think of Mahler's Fourth? I'm becoming increasingly fond of it, the expressive variation--its constantly shifting tones--unceasingly entertain. Not to mention the astonishing conclusion to the Third!...
You guys make too much of Telepathic Surgery. Besides Drug Machine in Heaven and Chrome Plated Suicide, I can't see what makes it by far the best Flaming Lips album.
I agree with you -- not strange at all. The way that works best for me is to listen to many different great works (the more varied the better) while continuing to come back around to the ones that are more difficult/have more depth/require more listens. One's experience with the others will sooner or later lead to an understanding of the more difficult ones (especially if one had listened to its influences).
I think the single most important things to uncovering the total experience of a work is to, while listening to it, (1) REALLY being there, distraction-free (or at least mostly), and listening to it (can't listen to great music as "background" music). Only if one is already familiar with it should he listen to it as "background" but even then it's not necessarily recommended. (2) While listening, mentally noting the emotions/changes/climaxes/vocals/instrumentation/development -- whatever the qualities or characteristics on display, observing and defining what one is hearing is essential to fully grasping the work. The more one does this the better he becomes at it and really starts to assimilate the work(s) and gain a greater and greater understanding of them. Sooner or later one can approach what the artist him/herself was thinking/experiencing because one has, through observation and understanding, worked himself up to having done just that (even if vicariously).
Those are the main things I'd recommend to anybody. If I am struggling with a work I am usually forgetting to do the above, and once I get back to those basics I usually grasp it in very short order.
One strange thing I've come to discover is that spaced-out listening is a more reliable way to come to understand a complex work than repeated, back-to-back listening. If I listen to something over and over again consecutively, I get nowhere with it. However, if listen to it once and come back later to it, the music makes more sense to me. I guess that's the way the neural processing of music works. Strange, is it not?
Goodness! Based on what you said it sounds like it will end up being one of my favorite compositions once it eventually comes around to me. After all, many of my current favorites are the ones I struggled the hardest to understand (Ives's 4th, Gesang der Jünglinge,...). Thanks for shedding some light on that bewildering work for me. And thanks for the link. Now that I've given it another listening the forcefulness of the pounding of chords are starting to sound tragic rather than banal. Perhaps I should also move on to the 2nd movement. The 1st movement might make more sense if the sonata is listened to as whole.
I've liked it a lot for a long time but it's moving up really fast now, and currently, there's a very good chance that I'm underrating it. It's an extraordinary work, one of the most touching masterpieces in the solo repetoire. The 2nd movement is an elegant, utterly miraculous fugal stream-of-consiciousness, a series of trips down memory lane, eventually entering a state of dreams and magical sweetness, and perhaps even acceptance of the afterlife. The whole work is something of a precursor to Shostakovich's 15th. Beethoven is looking back on his life, facing his deafness, facing death, in elongated variations of themes and emotional waves running over him, weaving in and around eachother, coalescing, namely nostalgia, moments of gentleness and sorrow and touches of heaven and whimsy. The sheer scope of emotions it runs through and how evocative it is of Beethoven's interior mental imagery, is unprecedented and extraordinary. The 1st movement features those stuttering chords of defiance -- in your face, forceful yes, but also inept. Amidst the force, there's a simultaneous inertia and struggle to them; the energy is that of an old man, someone who's partially lost his will. This isn't the resolute, heroic, impervious strength of his 5th Symphony anymore.
I've been struggling with Beethoven's 32nd Piano Sonata. I haven't listened to the second movement yet because I want to figure out the first one first. But I just don't get it! The main theme just seems too blunt and forceful, too in-your-face. Beethoven is notorious for his defiant gestures, but this time he went too far! For me, it just sounds rather banal. But every critic (including Scaruffi) raves it as his greatest piano work. So now I've got this feeling that there's something deceptively ingenious about it and I just haven't figured it out yet. For that matter, I'll wait before I rate.
NOTE: Sister Ray, Ascension, 1st Movement of Mahler's 9th, and 4th Movement of Beethoven's 9th are all under very strong consideration for a 9.3+ rating... any one of them, along with Atlantis, could be the greatest track/movement of music ever... I am approximately 97.265% certain that no other tracks/movements currently listed could be 9.3+ ... NOTE #2: meticulously rating all these tracks in exact order ain't easy :)
how do you put buddy guy at 30 and just call him a blues guitarist and put jimmi hendrix at 1 when jimmi hendrix learn all his licks and stage presence from watching buddy guy learn your history wouldnt be a jimmi without buddy even eric clapton learn from buddy guy and calls him the best
Yes, it's great. At worst a "high" 7 (7.2), but probably should be on this list ... just haven't watched it in a few years and need to see it again to be sure
1. What are your five favorite albums? (No particular order to this)
Who's Next, The Who
Close to the Edge, Yes
IV, Led Zepplin
Dark Side of the Moon, Pink Floyd
Quadrophenia, The Who
2. I focus on how much i like the songs vs what percentage of the album are great songs. If an album has both, then it is probably on this list.
3. Quadrophenia, The Who
4. Yessongs, Yes (it is a concert album, so this may not count, but if it does it is definetly the winner IMO).
Whatever list you look at, you'll always find movies that you think shouldn't be there and miss others that you feel should be there. To satisfy you, The Fountain is on Empire 500: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/empire+500/
It may not be too helpful, but I like JWN Sullivan's attempt at summarizing the late works of Beethoven:
"The chief characteristics of the fully mature Beethoven's attitude toward life are to be found in his realization of suffering and in his realization of the heroism of achievement. The character of life as suffering is an aspect that our modern civilization, mercifully for the great majority of people, does a great deal to obscure. Few men have the capacity fully to realize suffering as one of the great structural lines of living.
[...]
Beethoven does not communicate to us his perceptions or his experiences. He communicates to us the attitude based on them. We may share with him that unearthly state where the struggle ends and pain dissolves away, although we know but little of his struggle and have not experienced his pain. He lived in a universe richer than ours, in some ways better than ours and in some ways more terrible. And yet we recognize his universe and find his attitudes towards it prophetic of our own. It is indeed our own universe, but as experienced by a consciousness which is aware of aspects of which we have but dim and transitory glimpses."
Sullivan is obviously being a bit reductive, to listen to Op. 111--note by note--is to be exposed to something much more complex than a single attitude, but I think the above does a good job at accomplishing the heroic task of communicating what it is that makes Beethoven so great (although his remarks seem particularly applicable to the sonata's last, exultant movement). Beethoven's final works--the last symphony, the late sonatas and quartets, Missa Solemnis--are some of the greatest achievements of all time in my mind, it is incredible that after a productive life full of astonishing music--the concertos, the earlier symphonies, Fidelio, etc--he was still reaching new heights. I also listen to Kempff's performance.
AfterHours, what do you think of Mahler's Fourth? I'm becoming increasingly fond of it, the expressive variation--its constantly shifting tones--unceasingly entertain. Not to mention the astonishing conclusion to the Third!...
You guys make too much of Telepathic Surgery. Besides Drug Machine in Heaven and Chrome Plated Suicide, I can't see what makes it by far the best Flaming Lips album.
Thank you
I agree with you -- not strange at all. The way that works best for me is to listen to many different great works (the more varied the better) while continuing to come back around to the ones that are more difficult/have more depth/require more listens. One's experience with the others will sooner or later lead to an understanding of the more difficult ones (especially if one had listened to its influences).
I think the single most important things to uncovering the total experience of a work is to, while listening to it, (1) REALLY being there, distraction-free (or at least mostly), and listening to it (can't listen to great music as "background" music). Only if one is already familiar with it should he listen to it as "background" but even then it's not necessarily recommended. (2) While listening, mentally noting the emotions/changes/climaxes/vocals/instrumentation/development -- whatever the qualities or characteristics on display, observing and defining what one is hearing is essential to fully grasping the work. The more one does this the better he becomes at it and really starts to assimilate the work(s) and gain a greater and greater understanding of them. Sooner or later one can approach what the artist him/herself was thinking/experiencing because one has, through observation and understanding, worked himself up to having done just that (even if vicariously).
Those are the main things I'd recommend to anybody. If I am struggling with a work I am usually forgetting to do the above, and once I get back to those basics I usually grasp it in very short order.
Thanks, no problem :) I definitely recommend listening to it all as a whole work.
One strange thing I've come to discover is that spaced-out listening is a more reliable way to come to understand a complex work than repeated, back-to-back listening. If I listen to something over and over again consecutively, I get nowhere with it. However, if listen to it once and come back later to it, the music makes more sense to me. I guess that's the way the neural processing of music works. Strange, is it not?
Goodness! Based on what you said it sounds like it will end up being one of my favorite compositions once it eventually comes around to me. After all, many of my current favorites are the ones I struggled the hardest to understand (Ives's 4th, Gesang der Jünglinge,...). Thanks for shedding some light on that bewildering work for me. And thanks for the link. Now that I've given it another listening the forcefulness of the pounding of chords are starting to sound tragic rather than banal. Perhaps I should also move on to the 2nd movement. The 1st movement might make more sense if the sonata is listened to as whole.
I've liked it a lot for a long time but it's moving up really fast now, and currently, there's a very good chance that I'm underrating it. It's an extraordinary work, one of the most touching masterpieces in the solo repetoire. The 2nd movement is an elegant, utterly miraculous fugal stream-of-consiciousness, a series of trips down memory lane, eventually entering a state of dreams and magical sweetness, and perhaps even acceptance of the afterlife. The whole work is something of a precursor to Shostakovich's 15th. Beethoven is looking back on his life, facing his deafness, facing death, in elongated variations of themes and emotional waves running over him, weaving in and around eachother, coalescing, namely nostalgia, moments of gentleness and sorrow and touches of heaven and whimsy. The sheer scope of emotions it runs through and how evocative it is of Beethoven's interior mental imagery, is unprecedented and extraordinary. The 1st movement features those stuttering chords of defiance -- in your face, forceful yes, but also inept. Amidst the force, there's a simultaneous inertia and struggle to them; the energy is that of an old man, someone who's partially lost his will. This isn't the resolute, heroic, impervious strength of his 5th Symphony anymore.
Kempff's is the best performance I know of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8Z7KdfdYZc
I've been struggling with Beethoven's 32nd Piano Sonata. I haven't listened to the second movement yet because I want to figure out the first one first. But I just don't get it! The main theme just seems too blunt and forceful, too in-your-face. Beethoven is notorious for his defiant gestures, but this time he went too far! For me, it just sounds rather banal. But every critic (including Scaruffi) raves it as his greatest piano work. So now I've got this feeling that there's something deceptively ingenious about it and I just haven't figured it out yet. For that matter, I'll wait before I rate.
Maybe I'll win the antipathy of many, but the truth is: many of Beatles's albums are overrated.
NOTE: Sister Ray, Ascension, 1st Movement of Mahler's 9th, and 4th Movement of Beethoven's 9th are all under very strong consideration for a 9.3+ rating... any one of them, along with Atlantis, could be the greatest track/movement of music ever... I am approximately 97.265% certain that no other tracks/movements currently listed could be 9.3+ ... NOTE #2: meticulously rating all these tracks in exact order ain't easy :)
how do you put buddy guy at 30 and just call him a blues guitarist and put jimmi hendrix at 1 when jimmi hendrix learn all his licks and stage presence from watching buddy guy learn your history wouldnt be a jimmi without buddy even eric clapton learn from buddy guy and calls him the best
You missed Snow white Happily Ever After love this one BTW not a disney movie more of a spoof i guess you could say
Many songs were left out from this list :(
Another thing, why isnt Dion on this list?
Yes, it's great. At worst a "high" 7 (7.2), but probably should be on this list ... just haven't watched it in a few years and need to see it again to be sure
Have you watched Alien?
Check out this site (http://archive.org/details/silent_films) to watch a lot of the early silent public domain horror films
hans christian andersen the little mermaid
its on youtube made in 1978
have to watch it in parts
1. What are your five favorite albums? (No particular order to this)
Who's Next, The Who
Close to the Edge, Yes
IV, Led Zepplin
Dark Side of the Moon, Pink Floyd
Quadrophenia, The Who
2. I focus on how much i like the songs vs what percentage of the album are great songs. If an album has both, then it is probably on this list.
3. Quadrophenia, The Who
4. Yessongs, Yes (it is a concert album, so this may not count, but if it does it is definetly the winner IMO).
Probably "Edition II" (also it was the first recording and Coltrane considers it the standard version).
Which edition of Ascension do you prefer?
Unless I'm missing something huge, The Silver Brumby is a horse book. (Yes, I know what a brumby is. I read Banjo Patterson.) How did that happen?
Whatever list you look at, you'll always find movies that you think shouldn't be there and miss others that you feel should be there. To satisfy you, The Fountain is on Empire 500: https://www.icheckmovies.com/lists/empire+500/
Oh brother... :)