Yup, probably A Fire Upon the Deep though A Deepness in the Sky hardly relates. I personally liked The Peace Wars as well, but perhaps just because I've lived in Livermore.
Meyer was Travis' economist friend that owned the houseboat (delightfully named "JOHN MAYNARD KEYNES")in the slip next to McGee's "BUSTED FLUSH". Yes Jim Tile should partner to Skink. When I posted this list I couldn't recall his name. As for Westlake, I shamefully admit I have not read anything by him. Perhaps I should try it. By now you will see my E-mail regarding the other message.
Sorry for not offering up my own analysis until now. In the face of such thorough and intelligent deconstruction, I am embarrassed by the simplicity of my appreciation for Unforgiven. In short, I thought it was a marvelous depiction of the darkness inherent to violence. In the world of Unforgiven there is no instance of heroic or glorified violence. And those that indulge in violence and murder are obviously tainted by it. I found it refreshing, if depressing. While being a tiny minority, there have been plenty of movies that depict violence without glorifying it, but none (that I can think of) that have so well depicted the damage that violence does to oneself.
And I thought all involved acted the hell out of that movie.
i've never seen a walt stillman movie....but i just saw boys don't cry and have become very much enamoured of chloe sevigny....so of course disco's on my list. i've seen a bit of it awhile back and wasn't *too* thrilled....but it was the middle of the movie and i didn't really know what was going on. thanks for the warning, though. :)
TRUE LIES gave me a major pain - except for the Tom Arnold character who made it chucklesome/painful. And it's a wonder Cameron didn't have the Titanic sink after colliding with a nuclear warhead. Have you noticed how many of his movies indulge in the pornography of nuclear destruction?: A2, T2, THE ABYSS, and TRUE LIES.
You've given me additional insights into the movie. Much thanks. From what you've said, I don't think we have any major disagreements about it. I won't press you to add it to your list, since it is a list of favorites and favorites are personal.
Btw, I hope you're hard at work on that list of favorite sf stories - I look forward to telling you what you should add to it :-D
Be careful using philosophical terms like 'libertarian' around me; I'm likely to try and drag you into a discussion about it. Have you heard of the libertarian philosopher Robert Nozick? His famous book on the subject is ANARCHY, STATE, AND UTOPIA.
I'm agin censorship. Really, I am. So I wouldn't argue that the list ought not be published anywhere. As to whether it should be published here, that's completely Jim's call - I'll happily accept his decision. And I'm not averse to dark or even 'sick' humour, as I think my lists reveal.
My response to strong misanthropy, however, is that it springs from a mistakenly narrow assessment of the human animal. We have accomplished wonders and are capable of at least as much good as evil.
You are right. Both of us (and of course, jim) think very highly of UNFORGIVEN. I always try to list favorites as opposed to best lists. My motivation for this lies in my libertarian nature. I am uncomfortable pretending my tastes are any thing but my tastes. I am still considering the sf ss list.
As the posting author, and as a contributor to the list:
I can honestly state that it was NOT our intention to be irresponsible contributors to the Listology. Those items which are humorous (and people will debate me on the humor of *any* item, I'm sure) were intended in the spirit of the Onion, which did a very similar list as an Infographic not terribly long ago.
And it's not a comfortable list, by any means; as Sirilyan says, it's dark humor. It's misanthropic and tasteless-- and yes, it occasionally crosses the very fine line between "tasteless" and "downright offensive." My tolerance for a lot of things that would automatically disgust or offend others is frighteningly high, however; it's a result of life experience ("Learn to Draw Realistic Trauma Victims" came from my own experiences in a First Responder class a few years back, for instance).
Sirilyan has expressed to me (and now to the Listology as a whole, in his post) that he doesn't wish to be a controversialist. I agree with him wholeheartedly on this point-- and more than that, I've no wish for this list to be the test case for the Listology's admirably even-handed policy about questionable items. I have other sites; it can always be moved and hosted elsewhere, or edited to community satisfaction here.
Yes, it's quite misanthropic. Is that a criticism, or a statement of personal taste?
While this isn't typical Listology fare (I also don't recall any scenes in The Matrix where someone sold bullets to Neo), I do feel there's some humor in here, and will probably need to (gladly) take the rap for a few of the items you found offensive. People with low opinions of humanity tend to resonate with me; it's part of the reason I read The Onion, and have avoided Welcome to the Dollhouse as much as possible, because it harmonizes far too well with me. Todd Solondz would write children's books like these.
Still, I've got no real interest in being a controversialist. This is an attempt at humor; it's quite dark; and it's not typical Listfare. Won't argue with any of those three things. If the list needs to be edited for any of these reasons, I'll choose which of my contributions I think should be cut (or perhaps even if it doesn't; several are unnecessarily mean without sufficient comedic value). If it needs to go away for any of these reasons, I've no problem with the fact that it should be hosted somewhere else.
OK, I asked for it. I didn't really see the political implications of the film and to be honest with you I'm not sure I agree with your conclusions although they were admirably argued. The introduction of the English Bob character was developed to serve as a paradox to Eastwood's Munny. After all English Bob & Munny had reputations as desporados of the first order, "assasins" as Hackman termed them. English Bob turned out to be a coward (witness the jailhouse scene) while Munny was anything but. Little Bill represented order and acted as though his decision was in fact law. He was outraged with the idea that Munny "shot an unarmed man" even though he had just beaten one to death. Therefore his line about "not deserving to die like this" was directed to the concept that anything he did was to preserve order and could not be concieved as wrong.
The morality issue is more convoluted, but basically hinges on three human fralities as old as Greek Tragedy. 1. The futility of Revenge. The whores hired an assasin to kill the cowboys and brought down ruin on the whole town. Likewise Eastwood's Munny reverted to his violent ways to revenge his friend Ned. 2. The struggle of aging men to escape their violent youth. Ned was able to do this but ultimately Munny was not. 3. The degree to which men can devalue human life and the personal consequences they must suffer for it.
I felt that one simple change in the ending of the film would have made it much more effective. Rather than a post-script slide indicating Munny lived to a ripe old age, I would have preferred to read that he had died in a hold-up attempt (or better yet hanged for murder)a few years later. I agree that SHANE is a classic. It may have the best ending of any western I have ever seen.
"Banditos" by the Refreshments. "Everybody knows/ That the world is full of stupid people/ so meet me at the mission at midnight/ we'll divvy up there..."
Yeah, actually I've seen it. And I agree that it is better than the theatrical release. But I'd have to disagree about it being Cameron's best. I'd rank his movies like so:
Aliens
The Terminator
Terminator 2
The Abyss (director's cut)
Titanic
The Abyss (theatrical release (big markdown 'cause of the ending))
True Lies
Piranha II: The Spawning
I did have some slight misgivings about placing The Terminator so high, as I might have enjoyed the The Abyss a bit more. But I had to allow for the special effects-driven "wow!" factor clouding my judgement (The Terminator was made in 1984!).
And yes, I cheated by giving T1 and T2 a tie for second. Again, allowing for the "wow!" factor.
These were surprisingly hard to rate. Cameron is pretty reliable. There's a decent drop off after Titanic, though. But this little project has reminded me to add True Lies to my Guilty Pleasures list. :)
UNFORGIVEN has two main themes: (1) the moral question of when, if ever, it is right to kill a human being, and (2) the political question of how the state (= the thing run by government) ought to be structured. These themes are best illustrated by sorting the characters in the movie into three groups (a) the gunmen, (b) the women, and (c) the writer.
(1) The Moral Dimension
(a) The Gunmen
'English Bob' [Richard Harris] is a professional assassin: the railroad pays him to kill its enemies, mainly indians.
'Little Bill' [Gene Hackman] is a sadistic bully who ultimately depends on his henchmen to justify his sadism with a sense of his worth to the community. He tortures and kills Ned Logan [Morgan Freeman] in the line of his 'duty' as sheriff of Big Whisky. He really believes this justification: his last words are, "I don't deserve to die like this."
'William Munney' [Clint Eastwood] is a reformed killer. It is his role as father of motherless children that draws him into a one-off paid assassination of the cowboys who mutilated the whore. Ultimately he kills Little Bill and his henchmen, and Skinny the whoremaster, out of a sense of moral outrage over the death of his friend, Ned Logan.
'The Schofield Kid' - is enthusiastic about killing, until he actually does it. He suffers the pangs of guilt, and agonises over his justification for killing: "I guess he had it coming." Munney's reply, "We've all got it coming," is disturbingly ambiguous.
'Ned Logan' - finds that, despite the bonds of friendship, he no longer has the stomach for killing. Is his fate deserved? Another difficult moral question.
(b) The Women
Are the whores justified in putting a price on the heads of the two cowboys? Little Bill, in his role as upholder of the law, frowns on their action. Ironically, the whore who was mutilated is the least enthusiastic about having them killed.
Munney's dead wife represents moral reform. The movie begins and ends with narration about her reforming influence on him, and her moral insight into his character.
Sally, Ned Logan's Indian wife, represents stoical acceptance of the harshness of life.
(c) The Writer
Is the writer telling the story? We see him switch allegiance from English Bob to Little Bill; does he finally switch allegiance to William Munney?
The moral of the story is that character (or virtue, or the disposition to act in certain ways in certain situations) will out. Munney happens to be good at killing in gunfights, that's his virtue. This time he kills someone who did deserve to "die like this".
(2) The Political Dimension
(a) The Gunmen
English Bob represents the elitist form of statism known as monarchism. (Statism is the general position that we should live under a state rather than not. The 'not' position is anarchism.) He suggests to the Americans that they would have no problem with political assassins if their state was headed by a king or queen. "One isn't that quick to shoot a king...[but] why not shoot a president?"
Little Bill represents the democratic form of statism known as republicanism. Republicans and monarchists are enemies. Little Bill beats and humiliates English Bob in public and runs him out of town. But note that LB is a poor builder: the roof of his house leaks. No doubt this is symbolic.
Munney, Logan, and The Schofield Kid represent individualism bordering on anarchism: they don't live in towns and so tend to make their own law, when they think about law at all. They depend on themselves and their tried and true friends. Anarchists and statists are enemies.
So does the movie argue for anarchism - since the statists are defeated? Perhaps, but the town, and the whores, and the corrupting power of money, remain.
So there it is. Heaps of food for thought. Not just another western.
By the way, sk, I approve of all the movies on your list. SHANE and THE SEARCHERS, especially, are real works of cinematic art.
Jim, perhaps you know by now that THE ABYSS is now available in a 'director's cut' version. It's a far superior movie to the original release. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's James Cameron's best. That's right, better than A2, T2, and T. [Huh! AT&T. Ignore all between brackets.]
Your list might qualify as an "abusive post", guys. A more misanthropic work I've never seen... well, not at TL. Keep this in mind: media publicity doesn't make the bad guys the majority.
Jim, you know my answer: A FIRE UPON THE DEEP. But if you had said "the first Vernor Vinge story", I would have said GRIMM'S STORY - it's a novella (or 'novelette', I always confuse those two terms).
"Repent Harlequin!" Said the Ticktockman is one of my favorite short stories of all time. So much information is conveyed about the world and characters in a mere 10 or 12 pages. Amazing.
Yup, probably A Fire Upon the Deep though A Deepness in the Sky hardly relates. I personally liked The Peace Wars as well, but perhaps just because I've lived in Livermore.
Meyer was Travis' economist friend that owned the houseboat (delightfully named "JOHN MAYNARD KEYNES")in the slip next to McGee's "BUSTED FLUSH". Yes Jim Tile should partner to Skink. When I posted this list I couldn't recall his name. As for Westlake, I shamefully admit I have not read anything by him. Perhaps I should try it. By now you will see my E-mail regarding the other message.
Well put. Maybe I will add the film to my list.
Sorry for not offering up my own analysis until now. In the face of such thorough and intelligent deconstruction, I am embarrassed by the simplicity of my appreciation for Unforgiven. In short, I thought it was a marvelous depiction of the darkness inherent to violence. In the world of Unforgiven there is no instance of heroic or glorified violence. And those that indulge in violence and murder are obviously tainted by it. I found it refreshing, if depressing. While being a tiny minority, there have been plenty of movies that depict violence without glorifying it, but none (that I can think of) that have so well depicted the damage that violence does to oneself.
And I thought all involved acted the hell out of that movie.
The firebrand in me offers up this link. :)
<CRINGE>I haven't seen The Wild Bunch.</CRINGE>
Although I enjoy our discussions I refuse to rise to that bait. But neither you nor jim commented on THE WILD BUNCH. I was surprised.
i've never seen a walt stillman movie....but i just saw boys don't cry and have become very much enamoured of chloe sevigny....so of course disco's on my list. i've seen a bit of it awhile back and wasn't *too* thrilled....but it was the middle of the movie and i didn't really know what was going on. thanks for the warning, though. :)
TRUE LIES gave me a major pain - except for the Tom Arnold character who made it chucklesome/painful. And it's a wonder Cameron didn't have the Titanic sink after colliding with a nuclear warhead. Have you noticed how many of his movies indulge in the pornography of nuclear destruction?: A2, T2, THE ABYSS, and TRUE LIES.
You've given me additional insights into the movie. Much thanks. From what you've said, I don't think we have any major disagreements about it. I won't press you to add it to your list, since it is a list of favorites and favorites are personal.
Btw, I hope you're hard at work on that list of favorite sf stories - I look forward to telling you what you should add to it :-D
Be careful using philosophical terms like 'libertarian' around me; I'm likely to try and drag you into a discussion about it. Have you heard of the libertarian philosopher Robert Nozick? His famous book on the subject is ANARCHY, STATE, AND UTOPIA.
I'm agin censorship. Really, I am. So I wouldn't argue that the list ought not be published anywhere. As to whether it should be published here, that's completely Jim's call - I'll happily accept his decision. And I'm not averse to dark or even 'sick' humour, as I think my lists reveal.
My response to strong misanthropy, however, is that it springs from a mistakenly narrow assessment of the human animal. We have accomplished wonders and are capable of at least as much good as evil.
You are right. Both of us (and of course, jim) think very highly of UNFORGIVEN. I always try to list favorites as opposed to best lists. My motivation for this lies in my libertarian nature. I am uncomfortable pretending my tastes are any thing but my tastes. I am still considering the sf ss list.
Heh, Carmen, you know "Hey Jupiter" is really about *me* and *him.* Not you and him, whoever he is. :)
As the posting author, and as a contributor to the list:
I can honestly state that it was NOT our intention to be irresponsible contributors to the Listology. Those items which are humorous (and people will debate me on the humor of *any* item, I'm sure) were intended in the spirit of the Onion, which did a very similar list as an Infographic not terribly long ago.
And it's not a comfortable list, by any means; as Sirilyan says, it's dark humor. It's misanthropic and tasteless-- and yes, it occasionally crosses the very fine line between "tasteless" and "downright offensive." My tolerance for a lot of things that would automatically disgust or offend others is frighteningly high, however; it's a result of life experience ("Learn to Draw Realistic Trauma Victims" came from my own experiences in a First Responder class a few years back, for instance).
Sirilyan has expressed to me (and now to the Listology as a whole, in his post) that he doesn't wish to be a controversialist. I agree with him wholeheartedly on this point-- and more than that, I've no wish for this list to be the test case for the Listology's admirably even-handed policy about questionable items. I have other sites; it can always be moved and hosted elsewhere, or edited to community satisfaction here.
Yes, it's quite misanthropic. Is that a criticism, or a statement of personal taste?
While this isn't typical Listology fare (I also don't recall any scenes in The Matrix where someone sold bullets to Neo), I do feel there's some humor in here, and will probably need to (gladly) take the rap for a few of the items you found offensive. People with low opinions of humanity tend to resonate with me; it's part of the reason I read The Onion, and have avoided Welcome to the Dollhouse as much as possible, because it harmonizes far too well with me. Todd Solondz would write children's books like these.
Still, I've got no real interest in being a controversialist. This is an attempt at humor; it's quite dark; and it's not typical Listfare. Won't argue with any of those three things. If the list needs to be edited for any of these reasons, I'll choose which of my contributions I think should be cut (or perhaps even if it doesn't; several are unnecessarily mean without sufficient comedic value). If it needs to go away for any of these reasons, I've no problem with the fact that it should be hosted somewhere else.
OK, I asked for it. I didn't really see the political implications of the film and to be honest with you I'm not sure I agree with your conclusions although they were admirably argued. The introduction of the English Bob character was developed to serve as a paradox to Eastwood's Munny. After all English Bob & Munny had reputations as desporados of the first order, "assasins" as Hackman termed them. English Bob turned out to be a coward (witness the jailhouse scene) while Munny was anything but. Little Bill represented order and acted as though his decision was in fact law. He was outraged with the idea that Munny "shot an unarmed man" even though he had just beaten one to death. Therefore his line about "not deserving to die like this" was directed to the concept that anything he did was to preserve order and could not be concieved as wrong.
The morality issue is more convoluted, but basically hinges on three human fralities as old as Greek Tragedy. 1. The futility of Revenge. The whores hired an assasin to kill the cowboys and brought down ruin on the whole town. Likewise Eastwood's Munny reverted to his violent ways to revenge his friend Ned. 2. The struggle of aging men to escape their violent youth. Ned was able to do this but ultimately Munny was not. 3. The degree to which men can devalue human life and the personal consequences they must suffer for it.
I felt that one simple change in the ending of the film would have made it much more effective. Rather than a post-script slide indicating Munny lived to a ripe old age, I would have preferred to read that he had died in a hold-up attempt (or better yet hanged for murder)a few years later. I agree that SHANE is a classic. It may have the best ending of any western I have ever seen.
"Banditos" by the Refreshments. "Everybody knows/ That the world is full of stupid people/ so meet me at the mission at midnight/ we'll divvy up there..."
I would like to see other comments on this before I throw my $0.02 into the fray.
Yeah, actually I've seen it. And I agree that it is better than the theatrical release. But I'd have to disagree about it being Cameron's best. I'd rank his movies like so:
I did have some slight misgivings about placing The Terminator so high, as I might have enjoyed the The Abyss a bit more. But I had to allow for the special effects-driven "wow!" factor clouding my judgement (The Terminator was made in 1984!).
And yes, I cheated by giving T1 and T2 a tie for second. Again, allowing for the "wow!" factor.
These were surprisingly hard to rate. Cameron is pretty reliable. There's a decent drop off after Titanic, though. But this little project has reminded me to add True Lies to my Guilty Pleasures list. :)
Okay, you asked for it.
UNFORGIVEN has two main themes: (1) the moral question of when, if ever, it is right to kill a human being, and (2) the political question of how the state (= the thing run by government) ought to be structured. These themes are best illustrated by sorting the characters in the movie into three groups (a) the gunmen, (b) the women, and (c) the writer.
(1) The Moral Dimension
(a) The Gunmen
'English Bob' [Richard Harris] is a professional assassin: the railroad pays him to kill its enemies, mainly indians.
'Little Bill' [Gene Hackman] is a sadistic bully who ultimately depends on his henchmen to justify his sadism with a sense of his worth to the community. He tortures and kills Ned Logan [Morgan Freeman] in the line of his 'duty' as sheriff of Big Whisky. He really believes this justification: his last words are, "I don't deserve to die like this."
'William Munney' [Clint Eastwood] is a reformed killer. It is his role as father of motherless children that draws him into a one-off paid assassination of the cowboys who mutilated the whore. Ultimately he kills Little Bill and his henchmen, and Skinny the whoremaster, out of a sense of moral outrage over the death of his friend, Ned Logan.
'The Schofield Kid' - is enthusiastic about killing, until he actually does it. He suffers the pangs of guilt, and agonises over his justification for killing: "I guess he had it coming." Munney's reply, "We've all got it coming," is disturbingly ambiguous.
'Ned Logan' - finds that, despite the bonds of friendship, he no longer has the stomach for killing. Is his fate deserved? Another difficult moral question.
(b) The Women
Are the whores justified in putting a price on the heads of the two cowboys? Little Bill, in his role as upholder of the law, frowns on their action. Ironically, the whore who was mutilated is the least enthusiastic about having them killed.
Munney's dead wife represents moral reform. The movie begins and ends with narration about her reforming influence on him, and her moral insight into his character.
Sally, Ned Logan's Indian wife, represents stoical acceptance of the harshness of life.
(c) The Writer
Is the writer telling the story? We see him switch allegiance from English Bob to Little Bill; does he finally switch allegiance to William Munney?
The moral of the story is that character (or virtue, or the disposition to act in certain ways in certain situations) will out. Munney happens to be good at killing in gunfights, that's his virtue. This time he kills someone who did deserve to "die like this".
(2) The Political Dimension
(a) The Gunmen
English Bob represents the elitist form of statism known as monarchism. (Statism is the general position that we should live under a state rather than not. The 'not' position is anarchism.) He suggests to the Americans that they would have no problem with political assassins if their state was headed by a king or queen. "One isn't that quick to shoot a king...[but] why not shoot a president?"
Little Bill represents the democratic form of statism known as republicanism. Republicans and monarchists are enemies. Little Bill beats and humiliates English Bob in public and runs him out of town. But note that LB is a poor builder: the roof of his house leaks. No doubt this is symbolic.
Munney, Logan, and The Schofield Kid represent individualism bordering on anarchism: they don't live in towns and so tend to make their own law, when they think about law at all. They depend on themselves and their tried and true friends. Anarchists and statists are enemies.
So does the movie argue for anarchism - since the statists are defeated? Perhaps, but the town, and the whores, and the corrupting power of money, remain.
So there it is. Heaps of food for thought. Not just another western.
By the way, sk, I approve of all the movies on your list. SHANE and THE SEARCHERS, especially, are real works of cinematic art.
Jim, perhaps you know by now that THE ABYSS is now available in a 'director's cut' version. It's a far superior movie to the original release. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's James Cameron's best. That's right, better than A2, T2, and T. [Huh! AT&T. Ignore all between brackets.]
Your list might qualify as an "abusive post", guys. A more misanthropic work I've never seen... well, not at TL. Keep this in mind: media publicity doesn't make the bad guys the majority.
Jim, you know my answer: A FIRE UPON THE DEEP. But if you had said "the first Vernor Vinge story", I would have said GRIMM'S STORY - it's a novella (or 'novelette', I always confuse those two terms).
"Repent Harlequin!" Said the Ticktockman is one of my favorite short stories of all time. So much information is conveyed about the world and characters in a mere 10 or 12 pages. Amazing.