Greatest Songs/Tracks of All Time (Rock & Jazz) [THIS LIST IS ARCHIVED. SEE THE OTHER ONE, WHICH INCLUDES "CLASSICAL"]

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  1. 9.3/10
  2. Atlantis-Sun Ra-Atlantis-Track #6 (1967)

  3. 9.2/10
  4. Ascension-John Coltrane-Ascension-Track #1 [entire album] (1965)
  5. Sister Ray-The Velvet Underground-White Light/White Heat-Track #6 (1967)

  6. 9.1/10
  7. Satz: Ebene-Klaus Schulze-Irrlicht-Track #1 (1972)
  8. "Mode D – Trio and Group Dancers"/"Mode E – Single Solos and Group Dance"/"Mode F – Group and Solo Dance"-Charles Mingus-The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady-Track #4 (1963)

  9. 9.0/10
  10. Pursuance/Part 4: Psalm-John Coltrane-A Love Supreme-Tracks #3 & #4 (1964)

  11. 8.9/10
  12. Miss Fortune-Faust-Faust-Track #3 (1971)

  13. 8.8/10
  14. Free Jazz-Ornette Coleman-Free Jazz-Track #1 [entire album] (1960)

  15. 8.7/10
  16. Unit Structure-Cecil Taylor-Unit Structures-Track #3 (1966)

  17. 8.5/10
  18. Conclusion-Keith Jarrett-The Survivor's Suite-Track #2 (1976)

  19. 8.4/10
  20. Steps-Cecil Taylor-Unit Structures-Track #1 (1966)
  21. Moon In June-Soft Machine-Third-Track #3 (1970)
  22. Seeds, Visions & Counterpoint-Ivo Perelman-Seeds, Visions & Counterpoint-Track #2 (1996)

  23. 8.3/10
  24. Free Form Freak-Out/Hurricane Fighter Plane/Free Form Freak-Out/Transparent Radiation/Free Form Freak-Out/War Sucks/Free Form Freak-Out-Red Crayola-Parable of Arable Land-Track #1 [Entire Side 1] (1967)
  25. The Creator Has A Master Plan-Pharoah Sanders-Karma-Track #1 (1969)

  26. 8.2/10
  27. Bel Air-Can-Future Days-Track #4 (1973)
  28. Panoptikon-Diamanda Galas-Diamanda Galas-Track #1 (1984)
  29. Tragouthia Apo to Aima Exoun Fonos-Diamanda Galas-Diamanda Galas-Track #2 (1984)
  30. Litanies of Satan-Diamanda Galas-Litanies of Satan-Track #1 (1982)
  31. Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands-Bob Dylan-Blonde On Blonde-Track #14 (1966)

  32. 8.1/10
  33. Krautrock-Faust-Faust IV-Track #1 (1973)
  34. Flying Teapot-Gong-Flying Teapot: Radio Gnome Invisible Pt. 1-Track #2 (1973)
  35. Phallus Dei-Amon Tobin-Phallus Dei-Track #5 (1969)
  36. "Untitled"-Hash Jar Tempo-Well Oiled-Track #4 (1997)

  37. 8.0/10
  38. Ladybird-Shit & Shine-Ladybird-Track #1 [entire album] (2005)
  39. Valentyne Suite-Colosseum-Valentyne Suite-Tracks 5-7 (1969)
  40. Five Moods From an English Garden-Anthony Davis-Lady of the Mirrors-Track #3 (1980)
  41. Ghosts: Second Variation-Albert Ayler-Spiritual Unity-Track #4 (1964)
  42. King Kong Itself & King Kong II-VI-Frank Zappa-Uncle Meat-Tracks 1-6 [Side 4] (1969)
  43. Hotel Overture-Carla Bley-Escalator Over The Hill-Track #1 (1971)
  44. Cassandra Gemini-The Mars Volta-Frances The Mute-Tracks 5-12 (2005)

  45. 7.9/10
  46. Side Two: America Drinks/Status Back Baby/Uncle Bernie's Farm/Son of Suzy Creamcheese/Brown Shoes Don't Make It/America Drinks & Goes Home-Frank Zappa-Absolutely Free-Tracks 8-13 (1967)
  47. Side One: Plastic People/The Duke of Prunes/Amnesia Vivace/The Duke Regains His Chops/Call Any Vegetable/Invocation & Ritual Dance of the Young Pumpkin/Soft Sell Conclusion-Frank Zappa-Absolutely Free-Tracks 1-7 (1967)
  48. Negativland-Neu!-Neu!-Track #5 (1972)
  49. Hosianna Mantra-Popol Vuh-Hosianna Mantra-Track #3 (1973)
  50. Xero Tolerance-Type O Negative-Slow, Deep & Hard-Track #3 (1991)
  51. La Novia-Acid Mothers Temple-La Novia-Track #1 (2000)
  52. Fare Forward Voyagers-John Fahey-Fare Forward Voyagers (Soldier's Choice)-Track #3 (1973)

  53. 7.8/10
  54. Interstellar Overdrive-Pink Floyd-The Piper at the Gates of Dawn-Track #7 (1967)
  55. A Saucerful of Secrets-Pink Floyd-A Saucerful of Secrets-Track #5 (1968)
  56. The Little House I Used To Live In-Frank Zappa-Burnt Weeny Sandwhich-Track #8 (1970)
  57. The Ascension-Glenn Branca-The Ascension-Track #5 (1981)
  58. The End-The Doors-The Doors-Track #11 (1967)
  59. Resolution-John Coltrane-A Love Supreme-Track #2 (1964)
  60. Light My Fire-The Doors-The Doors (1967)-Track #6 (1967)
  61. Radio Ethiopia/Abyssinia-Patti Smith-Radio Ethiopia-Tracks #7 & 8 (1976)
  62. Evangelista I-Carla Bozulich-Evangelista-Track #1 (2006)
  63. Reoccurring Dreams-Husker Du-Zen Arcade-Track #23 (1984)
  64. In The Court Of The Crimson King-King Crimson-In The Court of the Crimson King-Track #5 (1969)
  65. Marquee Moon-Television-Marquee Moon-Track #4 (1977)
  66. The Witness Song - Nick Cave - The Good Son - Track #8 (1990)
  67. Gypsy Woman-Tim Buckley-Happy Sad-Track #5 (1968)
  68. Voodoo Chile-Jimi Hendrix-Electric Ladyland-Track #4 (1968)

  69. 7.7/10
  70. Under the Double Moon-Anthony Davis-Lady of the Mirrors-Track #4 (1980)
  71. La Mezquita Suite-Myra Melford-Even The Sounds Shine-Track #2 (1995)
  72. Voice of the Turtle-John Fahey-America-Track #12 (1971)
  73. Only Skin-Joanna Newsom-Ys-Track #4 (2006)
  74. Unsuccessfully Coping with the Natural Beauty of Infidelity-Type O Negative-Slow, Deep & Hard-Track #1 (1991)
  75. The Wizard-Albert Ayler-Spiritual Unity-Track #2 (1964)

  76. 7.6/10
  77. Venus In Furs-The Velvet Underground-The Velvet Underground & Nico-Track #4 (1967)
  78. European Son-The Velvet Underground-The Velvet Underground & Nico-Track #11 (1967)
  79. Janitor of Lunacy-Desertshore-Track #1 (1970)
  80. The Falconer-Nico-Desertshore-Track #2 (1970)
  81. Epitaph-King Crimson-In The Court of the Crimson King-Track #3 (1969)
  82. Moonlight On Vermont-Captain Beefheart & His Magic Band-Trout Mask Replica-Track #6 (1969)
  83. Starship-MC5-Kick Out the Jams-Track #8 (1969)
  84. From Her To Eternity-Nick Cave-From Her To Eternity-Track #4 (1984)
  85. Original Sin-Pandora's Box-Original Sin-Track #2 (1989)
  86. Track A – Solo Dancer-Charles Mingus-The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady-Track #1 (1963)
  87. Cypress Avenue-Van Morrison-Astral Weeks-Track #4 (1968)
  88. Beside You-Van Morrison-Astral Weeks-Track #2 (1968)
  89. We Are Time-Pop Group-Y-Track #4 (1979)
  90. Frankie Teardrop-Suicide-Suicide-Track #6 (1977)
  91. Thief of Fire-Pop Group-Y-Track #1 (1979)
  92. Pink Stainless Tail/Free Form Freakout-Red Crayola-Parable of Arable Land-Track #2 [1st Track of Side 2] (1967)
  93. Good Morning Captain-Slint-Spiderland-Track #6 (1991)
  94. Revolution 9-The Beatles-The Beatles-Track #29 (1966)
  95. Part Four: Never Known Questions-Residents-Not Available-Track #4 (1978)
  96. Halleluwah-Can-Tago Mago-Track #4 (1971)
  97. Part Two: The Making of a Soul-Residents-Not Available-Track #2 (1978)
  98. Bros-Panda Bear-Person Pitch-Track #3 (2007)
  99. Dolmen Music-Meredith Monk-Dolmen Music-Track #5 (1981)
  100. The Good Son - Nick Cave - The Good Son - Track #2 (1990)
  101. Chasing A Bee-Mercury Rev-Yerself Is Steam-Track #1 (1991)
  102. Even The Sounds Shine-Myra Melford-Even The Sounds Shine-Track #1 (1995)
  103. Heroin-The Velvet Underground-The Velvet Underground & Nico-Track #7 (1967)
  104. Sea Song-Robert Wyatt-Rock Bottom-Track #1 (1974)
  105. The Shadow World-Sun Ra-The Magic City-Track #2 (1965)
  106. Prelude to Agony-Type O Negative-Slow, Deep & Hard-Track #4 (1991)
  107. Facelift-Soft Machine-Third-Track #1 (1970)
  108. That The Peace-Myra Melford-Even The Sounds Shine-Track #3 (1995)

  109. 7.5/10
  110. The Octave Doctors & The Crystal Machine/Zero The Hero & The Witches Spell-Gong-Flying Teapot-Tracks #4 & #5 (1973)
  111. Cantilena-Ivo Perelman-Seeds, Visions & Counterpoint-Track #3 (1996)
  112. The Magic City-Sun Ra-The Magic City-Track #1 (1965)
  113. Tubular Bells Part 2-Mike Oldfield-Tubular Bells-Track #2 (1973)
  114. Emily-Joanna Newsom-Ys-Track #1 (2006)
  115. Have One On Me-Joanna Newsom-Have One On Me-Track #2 (2010)
  116. Mütterlein-Nico-Desertshore-Track #7 (1970)
  117. My Only Child-Nico-Desertshore-Track #3 (1970)
  118. Starsailor/The Healing Festival-Tim Buckley-Starsailor-Tracks #7 & 8 (1970)
  119. ...A Psychopath-Lisa Germano-Geek the Girl-Track #6 (1994)
  120. Sawdust & Diamonds-Joanna Newsom-Ys-Track #3 (2006)
  121. Flamenco Sketches-Miles Davis-Kind of Blue-Track #5 (1959)
  122. Temple of Love-Sisters of Mercy-Temple of Love (1983)
  123. "Untitled"-Hash Jar Tempo-Well Oiled-Track #6 (1997)
  124. Anonymous Proposition-Tim Buckley-Lorca-Track #2 (1970)
  125. When The Fire & The Rose Are One-John Fahey-Fare Forward Voyagers-Track #1 (1973)
  126. Why Don't You Eat Carrots?-Faust-Faust-Track #1 (1971)
  127. Very Sleepy Rivers-Mercury Rev-Yerself Is Steam-Track #8 (1991)
  128. Dark Star-The Grateful Dead-Live/Dead-Track #1 (1969)
  129. Improvisie-Paul Bley-Improvisie-Track #1 (1971)
  130. Desolation Row-Bob Dylan-Highway 61 Revisited-Track #9 (1965)
  131. Kick Out The Jams-MC5-Kick Out The Jams-Track #2 (1969)
  132. 21st Century Schizoid Man-King Crimson-In The Court of the Crimson King-Track #1 (1969)
  133. Nobody Walkin'-Tim Buckley-Lorca-Track #5 (1970)
  134. Der Untermensch-Type O Negative-Slow, Deep & Hard-Track #2 (1991)
  135. Frittering-Mercury Rev-Yerself Is Steam-Track #6 (1991)
  136. Track C – Group Dancers-Charles Mingus-The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady-Track #3 (1963)
  137. Oh Comely-Neutral Milk Hotel-In the Aeroplane Over the Sea-Track #8 (1998)
  138. Washer-Slint-Spiderland-Track #4 (1991)
  139. Track B – Duet Solo Dancers-Charles Mingus-The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady-Track #2 (1963)
  140. Part Three: Ship's a'Going Down-Residents-Not Available-Track #3 (1978)
  141. Madame George-Van Morrison-Astral Weeks-Track #6 (1968)

  142. 7.4/10
  143. "Untitled"-Hash Jar Tempo-Well Oiled-Track #1 (1997)
  144. Come Here Woman-Tim Buckley-Starsailor-Track #1 (1970)
  145. Stairway to Heaven-Led Zeppelin-IV-Track #4 (1971)
  146. Visions of Johanna-Bob Dylan-Blonde On Blonde-Track #3 (1966)
  147. Tubular Bells Part 1-Mike Oldfield-Tubular Bells-Track #1 (1973)
  148. Sweet Oddysee of a Cancer Cell t' th' Center of Yer Heart-Mercury Rev-Yerself Is Steam-Track #5 (1991)
  149. Baby Birch-Joanna Newsom-Have One On Me-Track #6 (2010)
  150. Desire-Talk Talk-Spirit of Eden-Talk Talk-Track #3 (1988)
  151. Zero Expectancy-Ivo Perelman-Seeds, Visions & Counterpoint-Track #1 (1996)
  152. Ghosts: First Variation-Albert Ayler-Spiritual Unity-Track #1 (1964)
  153. Song To The Siren-Tim Buckley-Starsailor-Track #5 (1970)
  154. Lucy - Nick Cave - The Good Son - Track #9 (1990)
  155. Che-Suicide-Suicide-Track #7 (1977)
  156. All Tomorrow's Parties-The Velvet Underground-The Velvet Underground & Nico-Track #6 (1967)
  157. Little Red Riding Hood Hit the Road-Robert Wyatt-Rock Bottom-Track #3 (1974)
  158. Meadow Meal-Faust-Faust-Track #2 (1971)
  159. Abschied-Nico-Desertshore-Track #5 (1970)
  160. Afraid-Nico-Desertshore-Track #6 (1970)
  161. Astral Weeks-Van Morrison-Astral Weeks-Track #1 (1968)
  162. Ballerina-Van Morrison-Astral Weeks-Track #7 (1968)
  163. I Want You Right Now-MC5-Kick Out The Jams-Track #7 (1969)
  164. Trilobite-Vampire Rodents-Lullaby Land-Track #1 (1993)
  165. Crib Death-Vampire Rodents-Lullaby Land-Track #3 (1993)
  166. Don't Call Me Pain-The Pop Group-Y-Track #7 (1979)
  167. Ain't It Strange-Patti Smith-Radio Ethiopia-Track #2 (1976)
  168. Part One: Edweena-Residents-Not Available-Track #1 (1978)
  169. Gravitational Constant-Type O Negative-Track #7 (1991)

  170. 7.3/10
  171. Syringe Mouth-Mercury Rev-Yerself Is Steam-Track #2 (1991)
  172. Cygnus... Vismund Cygnus-The Mars Volta-Frances The Mute-Track #1 (2005)
  173. Paranoid Android-Radiohead-OK Computer-Track #2 (1997)
  174. Snowgirl-The Pop Group-Y-Track #2 (1979)
  175. The Boys from Brazil-The Pop Group-Y-Track #8 (1979)
  176. The National Anthem-Radiohead-Kid A-Track #2 (2000)
  177. Inheritance-Talk Talk-Spirit of Eden-Track #4 (1988)
  178. Bosch Erotique-Vampire Rodents-Lullaby Land-Track #16 (1993)
  179. Sisters of Mercy-Leonard Cohen-Songs of Leonard Cohen-Track #5 (1968)
  180. After the Flood-Talk Talk-Laughing Stock-Track #3 (1991)
  181. The Weeping Song - Nick Cave - The Good Son - Track #4
  182. Wealth-Talk Talk-Spirit of Eden-Track #6 (1988)
  183. I Believe in You-Talk Talk-Spirit of Eden-Talk Talk-Track #5 (1988)
  184. Foi Na Cruz - Nick Cave - The Good Son - Track #1
  185. Like A Rolling Stone-Bob Dylan-Highway 61 Revisited-Track #1 (1965)
  186. Idiot Wind-Bob Dylan-Blood On The Tracks-Track #4 (1975)
  187. "Untitled"-Hash Jar Tempo-Well Oiled-Track #5 (1997)
  188. Pow R. Toc H-Pink Floyd-The Piper at the Gates of Dawn-Track #5 (1967)
  189. Evening Might Still-Myra Melford-Even The Sounds Shine-Track #5 (1995)
  190. Mr Tambourine Man-Bob Dylan-Bringing It All Back Home-Track #8 (1965)
  191. Free Form Freak-Out/Former Reflections Enduring Doubt-Red Crayola-Parable of Arable Land-Track #4 (1967)
  192. Suzanne-Leonard Cohen-Songs of Leonard Cohen-Track #1 (1968)
  193. Beyond Reason-Anthony Davis-Lady of the Mirrors-Track #1 (1980)
  194. Motor City Is Burning-MC5-Kick Out The Jams-Track #6 (1969)
  195. "Untitled"-Hash Jar Tempo-Well Oiled-Track #7 (1997)
  196. My Secret Reason-Lisa Germano-Geek The Girl-Track #1 (1994)
  197. ...Of Love & Colors-Lisa Germano-Geek The Girl-Track #11 (1994)
  198. Absolutely Sweet Marie-Bob Dylan-Blonde On Blonde-Track #11 (1966)
  199. Thus Krishna On The Battefield-John Fahey-Fare Forward Voyagers-Track #2 (1973)
  200. Gargoyles-Vampire Rodents-Lullaby Land-Track #5 (1993)
  201. Travelling-Meredith Monk-Dolmen Music-Track #2 (1981)
  202. Gotham Lullaby-Meredith Monk-Dolmen Music-Track #1 (1981)
  203. Jungle Fire-Tim Buckley-Starsailor-Track #6 (1970)
  204. Down by the Borderline-Tim Buckley-Starsailor-Track #9 (1970)
  205. Ghost Rider-Suicide-Suicide-Track #1 (1977)
  206. Lieber Honig-Neu!-Neu!-Track #6 (1972)
  207. Blood Money-The Pop Group-Y-Track #3 (1979)
  208. Scavenger-Vampire Rodents-Lullaby Land-Track #11 (1993)
  209. Nose Dive-Vampire Rodents-Lullaby Land-Track #15 (1993)
  210. The Rainbow-Talk Talk-Spirit of Eden-Track #1 (1988)
  211. Eden-Talk Talk-Spirit of Eden-Track #2 (1988)
  212. "Untitled"-Hash Jar Tempo-Well Oiled-Track #3 (1997)


  213. EVERYTHING BELOW THIS POINT PLUS HUNDREDS MORE ARE CURRENTLY UNDER RE-CONSIDERATION AND WILL BE UPDATED IN DUE TIME:
  214. “JMK-80 CFN-7”-Anthony Braxton-Saxophone Improvisations, Series F-Track #4 (1972)
  215. Alifib/Alife/Little Red Robin Hood Hit the Road-Robert Wyatt-Rock Bottom-Tracks #4-6 (1974)
  216. Touching-Paul Bley-Improvisie-Track #2 (1971)
  217. Lorca-Tim Buckley-Lorca-Track #1 (1970)
  218. Biography-Meredith Monk-Dolmen Music-Track #4 (1981)
  219. Vuh-Popol Vuh-In Den Garten Pharoahs-Track #2 (1972)
  220. Communications #11 Part 1 & 2-Michael Mantler-The Jazz Composer's Orchestra-Tracks #5 & #6 (1968)
  221. Djinji's Corner-Marion Brown-Afternoon of a Georgia Faun-Track #2 (1970)
  222. To Composer John Cage-Anthony Braxton-For Alto-Track #2 (1968)
  223. Cantos IV-Franz Koglmann-Cantos I-IV-Track #4 (1992)
  224. Poppy Nogood and the Phantom Band-Terry Riley-A Rainbow In Curved Air-Track #2 (1968)
  225. Pharoah's Dance-Bitches Brew-Miles Davis-Track #1 (1969)
  226. Bitches Brew-Miles Davis-Bitches Brew-Track #2 (1969)
  227. The Modern Dance-Pere Ubu-The Modern Dance-Track #2 (1978)
  228. Street Waves-Pere Ubu-The Modern Dance-Track #4 (1978)
  229. Sentimental Journey-Pere Ubu-The Modern Dance-Track #9 (1978)
  230. Non-Alignment Pact-Pere Ubu-The Modern Dance-Track #1 (1978)
  231. Birdland-Patti Smith-Horses-Track #2 (1975)
Author Comments: 

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Song Title-Artist-Album-Track Number (Year Released)

Pretty good list of some heavy and seemingly impenatrable songs that over time reveal much beauty and meaning. I must say though, I find it hard to believe that you coincidentally have a near carbon copy of Scaruffi's top songs (and albums). To be inspired by one's educated preference is one thing, but...

I'm not sure what's "hard to believe" but I'll attempt to satisfy your insinuated question:

Whether the following is difficult to believe or not this is honestly how it went down:

1. I have always adored music. When I was 3 months old I could play piano using a stick to press the keys as my mother held me up. She would call out a letter for a note and I would play the note with no prior training or education. My whole life I've had a strong emotional reaction towards music of many different types.

2. As I got older I went through the whole grunge Nirvana/Pearl Jam/Soundgarden phase and a Radiohead phase and Tool phase and so forth. I soonafter discovered the classical music greats, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, etc. I went off and spent the next 2 years almost wholly devouring classical music, rarely listening to rock, which I soon found vastly inferior.

3. I returned from this phase with an increased want for the truly great rock albums. My standards had been upped considerably by listening to classical music. I searched the net for lists and quickly purchased all the "greatest albums of all time". From Pet Sounds to The Beatles to The Rolling Stones, I've owned and listened to most all of the "great ones". I enjoyed these albums and temporarily thought they were the best rock had to offer, but never thought they came close to the 5th symphony or Brahms' 3rd or Mozart's Jupiter or Bach's 2nd violin partita or anything of the sort. In the back of my head I knew there must be comparable albums in rock or jazz, but I didn't have a clue where they were and after much searching I nearly gave in to the idea that rock or jazz just weren't nearly in the same league as classical.

4. I soonafter found Scaruffi's site. At first I dismissed it, but many months later (thanks to Lukeprog, a member of this site) I returned and decided to invest in his choices despite how difficult they were to find and how obscure they were.

5. I went into them with no final opinion, albeit enthusiastic expectation. I listened to the albums I purchased that he recommended and most of them immediately clicked with my tastes.

This list reflects my opinions. Piero Scaruffi has helped me immensely in discovering a majority of the albums listed but only slightly in the area of how I personally merit each one. The "slightly" refers specifically to how his reviews will at times shed light on what characteristics to look for in what makes the album brilliant. I will, when I am having trouble with 'getting' one of his recommendations, either ask him for advice on what he sees in it, or read one of his reviews (few of which are fully scripted in English). Usually, I sooner or later end up agreeing with him. Sometimes I don't.

Aside from In the Aeroplane Over the Sea and Spirit of Eden I haven't found a single rock/jazz album I would consider a masterpiece that he doesn't.

By your comment, you seem to be under the presumption that I've merely copied his list, which is completely incorrect. I understand how you could make that assumption, but it's not true. I've listened to a portion of these albums intensely over the last 5 years, and the ones I discovered from Scaruffi over the last year, which has served to shape my opinion of their merit. I look to Scaruffi for recommendations, not my own thoughts. The fact we seem to agree a lot on what we consider masterpieces is a product of us both looking for similar ideals. My ideals were founded in my 2 year adventure through classical music, not Piero Scaruffi. If I would've discovered these same albums without Scaruffi's help I would've eventually came to the same conclusions (except perhaps in the cases his reviews and advice has helped me). So he has served primarily to speed up the process.

Your comment also indicates you may have a disagreement with some of my picks or Scaruffi's picks, otherwise I would expect you to understand the profound emotional impact these albums can have on one who has listened to them and understood them. Are there any disagreements you have with the choices I've made? Do you have a list of albums you'd place here instead?

If so, I'd love to hear about them. I am always looking for more recommendations. I actually am hoping Scaruffi doesn't have a complete monopoly on trustworthy recommendations.

And lastly, I do wish my picks weren't so similar to his, but I'm not going to change them just to be different. It would be much worse to deny my own personal integrity as to how I feel, then to change my choices just because they closely reflect someone elses.

Don't know if you'll still respond to this, but...

"1. I have always adored music. When I was 3 months old I could play piano using a stick to press the keys as my mother held me up. She would call out a letter for a note and I would play the note with no prior training or education. My whole life I've had a strong emotional reaction towards music of many different types."

Are you sure? At 3 months old you could understand different letters? You were able to guess the names of the keys completely correctly? That seems impossible...

Didn't see this until now.

Sounds improbable I'm sure but it isn't impossible because that's what I did. I'm sure there are much more "impossible" things young 'uns have done, such as Mozart playing violin concertos when he was 4 (or some such age). Whole symphonies at 8, wasn't it? What I did may be unique but it doesn't hold a candle to those or many other much more prodigal examples. I was just accurately touching keys with a stick (think it was a xylophone wand). Cute. I have a photo showing me doing it though I understand if that wouldn't be sufficient evidence to convince you.

Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I forgot to mention that you seem to be ignoring the fact that none of the songs in bold show up on any of his greatest songs lists. When speaking of this list then, what are you referring to when calling it a carbon copy?

1. Atlantis-Sun Ra-Atlantis-Track #5 (1967)
2. Pursuance-John Coltrane-A Love Supreme-Track #3 (1964)

3. Sister Ray-The Velvet Underground-White Light/White Heat-Track #6 (1968)
4. “JMK-80 CFN-7”-Anthony Braxton-Saxophone Improvisations, Series F-Track #4 (1972)
5. Miss Fortune-Faust-Faust-Track #3 (1971)
6. Alifib-Robert Wyatt-Rock Bottom-Track #4 (1974)
7. Alife-Robert Wyatt-Rock Bottom-Track #5 (1974)
8. Mode D: Trio & Group Dancers–Charles Mingus-The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady-Track #4 (1963)
9. Steps-Cecil Taylor-Unit Structures-Track #1 (1966)
10. Ghosts (Second Variation)-Albert Ayler-Spiritual Unity-Track #4 (1964)

11. Moon In June-Soft Machine-Third-Track #3 (1970)
12. Satz: Ebene-Klaus Schulze-Irrlicht-Track #1 (1972)
13. War Sucks-Red Crayola-Parable of Arable Land-Track #6 (1967)
14. Heroin-The Velvet Underground-The Velvet Underground & Nico-Track #7 (1967)
15. Light My Fire-The Doors-The Doors (1967)-Track #6 (1967)
16. Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands-Bob Dylan-Blonde On Blonde-Track #14 (1966)
17. Lorca-Tim Buckley-Lorca-Track #1 (1970)
18. When Big Joan Sets Up-Captain Beefheart & His Magic Band-Trout Mask Replica-Track #17 (1969)
19. Theme Libre-Art Ensemble of Chicago-Les Stances A Sophie-Track #7 (1970)

20. Venus In Furs-The Velvet Underground-The Velvet Underground & Nico-Track #4 (1967)
21. We Are Time-Pop Group-Y-Track #4 (1979)
22. Beside You-Van Morrison-Astral Weeks-Track #2 (1968)
23. Psalm-John Coltrane-A Love Supreme-Track #4 (1964)
24. Mode C: Group Dancers-Charles Mingus-The Black Saint & the Sinner Lady-Track #3 (1963)
25. The Wizard-Albert Ayler-Spiritual Unity-Track #2 (1964)
26. Poppy Nogood & The Phantom Band-Terry Riley-A Rainbow In Curved Air-Track #2 (1968)
27. Unit Structure-Cecil Taylor-Unit Structures-Track #3 (1966)
28. Moonlight On Vermont-Captain Beefheart & His Magic Band-Trout Mask Replica-Track #6 (1969)
29. Paranoid Android-Radiohead-OK Computer-Track #2 (1997)
30. Voodoo Chile-Jimi Hendrix-Electric Ladyland-Track #4 (1968)
31. Flamenco Sketches-Miles Davis-Kind of Blue-Track #5 (1959)

32. The End-The Doors-The Doors-Track #11 (1967)
33. Radio Ethiopia-Patti Smith-Radio Ethiopia-Track #7 (1976)
34. Good Morning Captain-Slint-Spiderland-Track #6 (1991)
35. Little Red Robin Hood Hit The Road-Robert Wyatt-Rock Bottom-Track #6 (1974)
36. The Ascension-Glenn Branca-The Ascension-Track #5 (1981)
37. The Spectacular Commodity-Glenn Branca-The Ascension-Track #2 (1981)
38. How To Disappear Completely-Radiohead-Kid A-Track #4 (2000)
39. Dachau Blues-Captain Beefheart & His Magic Band-Trout Mask Replica-Track #3 (1969)
40. Frownland-Captain Beefheart & His Magic Band-Trout Mask Replica-Track #1 (1969)
41. European Son-The Velvet Underground-The Velvet Underground & Nico-Track #11 (1967)
42. LA Blues-The Stooges-Fun House-Track #7 (1970)
43. Two-Headed Boy, Part 1-Neutral Milk Hotel-In the Aeroplane Over the Sea-Track #4 (1998)
44. Resolution-John Coltrane-A Love Supreme-Track #2 (1964)

45. Negativland-Neu!-Neu!-Track #5 (1972)
46. Halleluwah-Can-Tago Mago-Track #4 (1971)
47. Marquee Moon-Television-Marquee Moon-Track #4 (1977)
48. Thief of Fire-Pop Group-Y-Track #1 (1978)
49. Janitor of Lunacy-Nico-Desertshore-Track #1 (1970)
50. The Good Son-Nick Cave-The Good Son-Track #2 (1990)

European Son and Sister Ray are awful songs. Sad Eyed Lady by Bob Dylan grains on the ears if you want an original song that actually influenced musicians I would go with Strawberry Fields Forever, Tomorrow Never Knows and Norwegian Wood by the Beatles.

Sister Ray wasn't original and didn't influence musicians? What!?

While you're entitled to your opinion and it's okay if you don't like those songs, your comment "actually influenced musicians" is very ignorant.

What do you think about Deep Waters, Blend, Bottoms Up, Hosianna-Mantra, Driver UFO...?

Have you heard Communications by the JCOA, mostly Communications #11? I think it would interest you if you have not.

Also, some other descent newer music, Ladybird by Shit and Shine, and The Cooler by Gang Gang Dance. Both 2005 releases.

First off, this list needs some revision. It's not fully accurate right now as I haven't updated it in awhile.

I think Hosianna Mantra is a masterpiece, probably 9.25, but not quite worthy of this list (though I wouldn't be surprised if that changed).

I am certain that I haven't heard the ones from 2005 as I have hardly given this decade the time of day yet. Still too much to catch up on from the past, all of which seems to possess far greater potential than anything from the 00's (classical and jazz mainly).

As for Deep Waters, Blend, Bottoms Up and Driver UFO, I'm not sure if I've heard any of those, but it could be just because I don't always pay attention to the names of the songs. Which albums/year are they from?

Haven't heard Communications #11. I'll check it out and get back to you with a rating, and with whether or not it will make it on the list.

Thanks!

I thought Ladybird was a track that would not be on Scaruffi's list because it is from 2005, but of course he finally got around to listening to it and gave it an 8/10, I would say that is a worthy score. It is one 40+ minute track of continuous ferocity, it is damn good, and probably the best that I have heard of this decade so far.
Deep Waters is #9 off of Ocean Songs - Dirty Three. - '98
Blend is #1 off of Fantasias for Guitar & Banjo - Sandy Bull - '63
Bottoms Up is #1 off of End of the Game - Peter Green - '70
Driver UFO is #1 off of Harsh 70's Reality - Dead C - '92

I would agree with both Deep Waters and Driver UFO as excellent suggestions, especially Deep Waters. Truly a masterpiece, probably one of my top 20-40 songs ever.

mark that one down in your diary. a scaruffi 8/10 is like halley's comet -- one comes around every 75 years

Yeah, it seems that with Scaruffi’s lens on popular music that all of popular music's quality left at the break of the millennia. Why would that suddenly happen? I do not listen to enough new music to properly weigh evidence against his low ratings, but how could the 90’s yield seemingly endless 8/10 or higher rated albums and as soon as the decade dies, so does the quality of popular music? But, do not let this distract from the topic at hand: Ladybird by Shit and Shine is very good - 40+ minutes of harrowing music - I love it. And I am glad someone else could get on board, namely Scaruffi.

I just listened to the little MP3 snippet on the Ladybird label site and it got me quite excited. Makes me want to dive hardcore into music again, but I definitely shouldn't.

Feifumgotem, any chance we'll see some lists from you? Do you have a website?

If you do, Ladybird is a good place to start for new stuff, but like I said, I do not know much about new music and for that matter music in general. All of you put me to shame, but I will get there soon enough, at least close if not completely.

"LISTS?": Not likely, I do not get any satisfaction from them, no one reads them: so, no one else is getting satisfaction, and the only reason I did do them was to clear my own thoughts on things. I used my lists more than anyone else did or would. I made them because I have a horrible memory; it is so bad that from time to time I forget that I like the VU or the Surfers. No website: no energy.

I do not know why I am replying, the sarcasm in your words is blinding me so.

Please reconsider. I'm quite sure several Listologists would appreciate your lists.

ummmmmmumumummmmmummmmmmmmummmmmmm..............

Truly, no sarcasm. I have genuinely searched for more Feifumgotem content online and come up empty.

that game is hilarious

i am sorry to ask this so far after the fact, but What contribution of mine made you search for a website of mine? normally i am very self loathing individual, thus the question - why, oh why would anyone ever care about little oh me...hmmmm.... in this case i simply think my involvement has been, not mediocre, but just bland, with a few comments of any significance (i do not intend on this to continue), but it was something that i have been wondering about off and on for some time and now i have a new vision of life (or it is the medication i am currently on from a very troubled surgery)...anyway just wondering if you had one particular post in mind or if it was more of how i carry myself on this site.

Insignificant posts? Don't try to be 0dysseus. That will only lead to disappointment. I know.

But I wouldn't call your posts bland or insignificant. A post like this is so full of specialized knowledge that it probably sounds to a chemist like his thesis paper sounds to you.

Sorry, I don't recall if there was a specific contribution that led me to google you.

I do recall self-loathing. My own, that is. It only lasted a few years, but it felt like I would always be that way.

I have the usual human reaction of wanting to give advice, but your situation and person are surely much different than mine, so your solutions will be different as well.

Some people grow into happiness and self-worth by directly confronting the lies they tell themselves. Some do it by learning a skill and performing well. I did it through philosophy. Some do it with medication. Some do it by growing healthier relationships. Some do it be falling in love with God. Some never do it.

If I could jump back in time and give myself two pieces of advice at age 5, it would be Wear sunscreen and Have more sex. (The latter, in my case at least, would require me to learn and practice some skills.)

thanks for the response, it is much appreciated. but since i started on percocet for pain relief i have had a rush of creativity in both music and literature – i hope to start some significant compositions in both fields in the coming weeks, but the music will rely heavily on my friend’s help finding musicians and converting my ideas to paper (both to sheet music, if he knows how, and to simply finding musicians and conducting them to my liking).

note: the percocet is not a wanted stimulus (i do not like drugs) but a quick relief of my anxiety for now (no more than a week). i cannot wait to get off of it and hope to never to return to it!!!!!! i plan on getting a more stable mild anxiety medication or regiment of anxiety reduction exercises to deal with it and continue this feeling of rapturous creativity that will hopefully result in tangible compositions.

and i am not sure about the “i wish i knew what i know now when i was younger” philosophy as it seems counterintuitive. if you knew what you know now, and told yourself then, you would invariably have some other thing to tell yourself with the new parameters set in place early in life: “the butterfly effect”. and most likely you would never correct the problem, and will probably always sulk the misfortunes gained and triumphs averted. and since that is most likely the case, the best thing you can do (and probably are doing) is to see what became of your past decisions, and to consult other people’s consequences from similar desired decisions to what you are vying for, and to then plug them into you future telling machine in your frontal lobe and start cranking out viable predictions. just a thought. i am not a fan of “if (famous person ex: John Lennon, J.F.K., Franz Ferdinand) was not killed when or how they were killed we would be living in a different world then we are today. well of course we would be living in a different world, but it is nothing that would be open to quality comparisons because you would not know of the reciprocal quality change (the world as we know it): again, “the butterfly effect.”

well, it is always good to hear from you, and i look forward to second guessing posts in the future to you and others. ;-P

When I responded, I was not aware that you were talking about Mantler's Jazz Composers Orchestra album. This is one of the next jazz albums I am getting so you will probably see it, along with the track(s), on this list and my greatest albums list in the near future.

As for the others, it will probably be a long while before I make the time to find and listen to them.

Also, albums such as Ladybird, OV and Ascension by Coltrane don't qualify for this list because they aren't separated into songs/tracks. They're entire albums.

Still, it really is nice to see an exciting album like Ladybird seems to be show up in such a shallow decade. God it would be a monumental event for an artist to make a 9/10 this decade! Much more shocking/exciting than in any previous one. I predict it will happen within the next year or 2...

I do not follow your logic on the Ladybird, OV and Ascension argument, but, to each his own.

Yeah, I don't follow your thinking either. Is there a certain minute limit at which a track is no longer a track for your criterion?

No minute limit at all. It just can't be a single song/track such as those as this would be the equivelant of posting an entire album on the list in one spot, which at this point I am unwilling to do, and for whatever reason, logical or illogical, just doesn't seem right.

I guess my thinking partially stems from the definition of a song:

"a short musical composition of words and music."

Of course, then it depends on your definition of brief. And then there's the fact that many of these aren't set to words. Maybe I should change the title from "SONGS" to "SONGS(ish)". ( :

But, what about: Negativland, Saucerful of Secrets, The Ascension, and most all of the Jazz compositions; those are neither short nor "words AND music," just music. Personally I cannot make the distinction between album length songs and 1/2 album length songs as either being qualified or unqualified by length, or that the song is the album, e.g. Sister Ray, Moon In June, Miss Fortune, Halleluwah... As long as it is only one track, one thing, one thought, it is one lone composition, thus, a song.

This reminds me of English teachers who tell their students that a paragraph is no more than 7 sentences and a sentence cannot have "and" in it at all, let alone more than once. A sentence is a complete thought, and if it takes more words than desired to fully express that thought, than the sentence can go and go and go without consideration of the reader to be. And one paragraph can be one whole essay, and one sentence can be one paragraph, just like Ascension - Coltrane - can be one whole song. There is nothing I hate more than useless limitations. But, if you feel you are justified in your plight than continue as you wish.

Exactly.

But I guess part of the problem comes in the deceiving nature of the word "song", a particular type of musical composition that is, in fact, short and has music and words. "Moon in June", for example, is probably better categorized as a suite. So I prefer the term "track".

Wow, you guys are really going to force me to thoroughly explain myself huh? Must be a bigger deal than I thought...

It's not something I am really worried about being justified or unjustified in. I just made that decision when I started, due to the impending confusion I that could've been generated. I could just as easily change it. It came to the forefront with Ascension, which rates as a 9.5 for a song but a 9.3 for an album. Does this make sense? Of course not...but it may in a second...let me explain

As an album, the following ratings would take effect for Ascension:

Song rating: 9.5/10, or 95/100

As a whole:
Continuity: 10
Ingenuity: 9.5/10 x 2 = 19
Breadth: 8.25/10 x 3 = 24.75
Profundity: 9.25/10 x 4 = 37
TOTAL: 90.75

95 (SONG RATING ABOVE) + 90.75 = 185.75 divided by 2 = 92.875 or a 9.3/10 as an album.

Essentially this means that although Ascension has an emotional intensity commensurate to a 9.5 rating, it lacks the breadth to keep the listener (me at least) listening to it on that level of emotional response (9.5) (which could've been improved by more change/variety/transformation throughout the work, such as that found in Rock Bottom or Trout Mask Replica). This basically means that you could start Ascension at any point of the album and for perhaps 10 minutes it will seem like a 9.5 but over the course of the album it will be more like a 9.3 due mostly to the unmasterful (though still outstanding) level of breadth.

When I started this list I decided not to place it on there due to the possiblity that it would cause confusion to place it there as a 9.5 yet see it on my albums list as a 9.3. Now, since I've explained it, I may put it on there. Perhaps I'll put in on there as a 9.3 (9.25) instead. Hmmmm...

Over My Head - how a 9.5 = 9.3 does not make sense to me. I do see how it could be in theory, but not in application.

It's really not a 9.5. Since it is infact the entire album, it is a 9.3. Simply put (I hope): any given moment of it has the force or power of a 9.5, in it's entirety has the breadth of an 8.25, the continuity of a 10, the ingenuity of a 9.5, the profundity of a 9.25. It is a 9.3.

This debate has become nearly as complex and paradoxical as the philosophical arguments for and against the existence of God that I am studying. Thank goodness this debate isn't as important!

No shit! I think the final one I wrote a few posts below does the trick.

It really is not that complex: either the song qualifies or not.

I am not that confused, I just do not understand how a 9.5=9.3, even if there would be some conceivable method of doing so. If Ascension is a 9.3, then make it a 9.3, but do not give two ratings on the same content.

Solution: either make my own list or shut up; or continue with this until I get bored; I have a lot of free time; at least time that seems to be free, I should not waste as much as I do.

Yeah, I don't understand this either. Why would you evaluate Ascension based on any ten minutes of the song rather than evaluating the whole thing? Why don't you consider breadth as a factor in evaluating particularly long songs?

Both of your responses are the exact reasons why I haven't tried to explain this before, or put Ascension on the list. Whether it makes sense to you or not, it is much more applicable than theoretical. The system is extremely workable in accurately rating the albums per my own evaluation of their merits and ranking.

AJ:

Why would you evaluate Ascension based on any ten minutes of the song rather than evaluating the whole thing? I didn't say that I did. I used the idea as an example to help understand what I was saying which was really just...

"Essentially this means that although Ascension has an emotional intensity commensurate to a 9.5 rating, it lacks the breadth to keep the listener (me at least) listening to it on that level of emotional response (9.5) (which could've been improved by more change/variety/transformation throughout the work, such as that found in Rock Bottom or Trout Mask Replica)."

Why don't you consider breadth as a factor in evaluating particularly long songs? I am not totally sure what you're trying to ask here, but I'll take a stab, though I suspect it will only introduce more confusion if you don't understand my previous post...

A song has a certain base value that I rate, based on emotional intensity or power. How the song works in conjunction with the other songs on an album determines the overall quality of the album. It would be possible to have two 10's as songs, taking up each side of an album, 20-25 minutes long each, but both completely different genres. Let's say one is like Sister Ray and the other is like Meredith Monk's Biography (which is a freakish vocal work with little instrumental backing, and nothing like Sister Ray). Each individually could be a 10, causing the songs to average out as a 10 but collectively they would lack continuity and thus as a whole album, the rating would still be under a 10. You could have an album collecting my top 14 greatest songs of all time, and the overall rating would be different that that of the song average of 12 9.75's and 2 10's.

Perhaps the best way to put it is the following (and I think this is a great analogy that will help you both understand)

Take another 9.5, say Beefhearts When Big Joan Sets Up. It's about 5 minutes long I think. Now make an album of 10 of those in a row. Song rating would be 9.5 across the boards, but ingenuity, breadth and profundity would all wane, petering out rather quickly, making it significantly less than a 9.5 overall.

That's a basic analogy of Ascension, though quite exagerrated.

I can understand that - obviously listening to the same song ten times would be tedious and repetitive. But if the album was five minutes long and only contained the song once, then negating any effects of feeling like an album should be longer than five minutes, I think the album should get the same rating as the song.

Put another way, I don't know how you can criticize an album for lack of variety or lack of cohesion but not criticize a song for the same things, if listening to the album is the exact same experience as listening to the song.

Any given moment of it has the force or power of a 9.5, in it's entirety has the breadth of an 8.25, the continuity of a 10, the ingenuity of a 9.5, the profundity of a 9.25. - Why don't you rate the song in its entirety too? How can you rate "any given moment" of the song instead of rating the song holistically?

Well the problem you're facing is the exact same one I did, which is why I chose not to put it on here. With Ascension you are talking about an entire album--not just a song. If you can imagine it broken up into parts as per the Beefheart analogy above, it's easier to understand.

I really don't want to talk about this anymore though. It is not that important to me and I have limited time. All the data on how I view this is contained herein and above. If you disagree or don't get it, I don't know what else to say aside from just repeating myself.

One more thing though, and I don't want to expound any further unless absolutely necessary. A 5 minute "album" would be a degree of disappointment for me no matter how great the song is. It would lack depth and is unlikely to be a very profound overwhelming experience at just 5 minutes, so therefore would absolutely rate less than just the song in my rating system since the product is intended to be an album which is, by definition, a collective (and usually accumulative) experience. Remember, this is a system I use to subjectively rate against the ideal of how I want albums to be. That's all it is. It doesn't mean "this is how albums must be rated". It is simply my own expectations and criteria. And it works for me, so for me it is correct. If it doesn't work for you than it will appear unworkable/illogical.

That is fine if it works for you, but do not paint yourself into a corner.

There.

Now the top 14 (9.75+) are all updated at least.

I like the adjustments, especially JMK... I was pleasently surprised to hear how good Saxophone Improvisations was. I cannot believe that is not talked about more, or maybe the problem is that I need to search more for talk about it; nevertheless I enjoyed it a lot.

It is a rare bird indeed, a relatively unknown/underrecognized masterwork of the jazz canon.

Do you have any other songs in your vault that tower over the inferior Sister Ray, and grating Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands?

There are definitely more songs to be added now and in the near future. I will update when I get the chance. While there will most certainly be more to place above the "grating" Sad Eyed, I think it is very unlikely there is anything to overtake the "inferior" Sister Ray.

Sorry about that comment, it was meant for ledzepp... up above, it got put out of place or I clicked on the wrong response link. I actually love Blonde on Blonde, and WL/WH is probably my favorite album of all.

Oh okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

Ok, now the list has been correctly organized. All songs are placed accurately including new additions. It could be considered complete as of this time, though I am bound to be forgetting some entries, as I have not updated the majority of this list (9.5 on down) in months.

Anyways, it looks much more accurate to me now.

AfterHours,

Have you heard Theatre Royal Drury Lane?
It is a live recording from 1974 that has all of Rock Bottom and others performed by the all-star cast that appeared on Rock Bottom.
It is a decent recording, but for someone who holds Rock Bottom to such high esteem as you do, it seems like it would be a worthy addition.

Awesome! I'll check this out very soon and let you know what I think of it. Thankyou, I do indeed adore Rock Bottom. The album is an utter miracle, so much so that I've never been fully satisfied with anything I've ever written on it. It leaves me speechless really, and truth be told, I am at a loss as to how I am going to describe it effectively in the short capsules I am using for my "Greatest Albums List (shortened version)". It will be an interesting challenge...

Here is my top ten rock influenced songs that I think are plain genius.

1. Tomorrow Never Knows- The Beatles
2. Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands- Bob Dylan
3. A Day In the Life- The Beatles
4. Venus In Furs- Velvet Underground
5. Third Stone from the Sun- Jimi Hendrix
6. The End- The Doors
7. God Only Knows- The Beach Boys
8. Nights in White Satan- The Moody Blues
9. Isn't It A Pity- George Harrison
10. Roundabout- Yes

Cool. I think Tomorrow Never Knows and A Day in the Life are two of the best Beatles songs, I think Sad Eyed... and Venus in Furs and The End are supreme masterpieces, I think Third Stone From the Sun is superb, God Only Knows very good and I don't know if I've heard 8, 9, 10.

Hey there AfterHours, I was just wondering if you felt some tracks were better suited in the album rather than as a seperate song. For instance, Satz Ebene, I can't listen to without hearing the rest of Irrlicht, it's part of the journey the music takes you on, not a single journey in itself. Sorry if I'm not making sense, I was just wondering your opinion on it, thanks

Interesting question. I think that songs can be looked at separately or in the context of an album. While all of Irrlicht is mesmerizing, there is no doubt in my mind that Satz Ebene is the greatest (meaning most emotionally powerful) track within the work.
Also, because of Irrlicht's particularly masterful continuity it is hard to imagine Satz Ebene within the context of any other album.
That said, I think most songs are separable from within an album, simply because they are well defined by tracks, and if I had just heard Satz Ebene without hearing the rest of Irrlicht I would still be giving it the same rating as it gets here, 9.75/10. There are no songs on this list I would say differently of, they are all the same within and without the albums they are a part of.

Now, I definitely feel that the album ratings would change, in most cases significantly, without their respective songs from this list.

Ahh yeah I see what you mean, though some songs do work well as songs on albums but not on their own. Especially within mixes (I know I'm venturing into EDM sorry) some songs are not meant to be the "best", they lead upto the big numbers, not in the sense that they're fillers, they serve a purpose as a progressing track rather than as a single. I can definitely see where you're coming from though, and thanks for your fast reply!

Yea there are definitely tracks like that. For instance, on the Beatles' Abbey Rd each of the songs taking part in the second half medley aren't significant songs on their own, but as a whole it is relatively emotional (for the Beatles).

Yeah, a bit off topic but I literally laughed out loud when I saw your comment to Revolver saying "You keep believing that and preaching the word" on your most impact poll! lol

I agree that on the surface it is funny, but it may have come across in a worse manner than intended. Sometimes in my limited time on the internet, I un-tactfully write things in a flurry without really thinking and they come across as mean-spirited, as in this case. Revolver means well but in my opinion doesn't seem to acknowledge and/or see the difference between artists like the VU who directly and vastly altered the entire history of rock music, and the Beatles who came up with some cool production techniques and tidbits (most of them borrowed from more innovative artists), but had a far less dramatic musical influence than the VU. I actually started gathering evidence against his posts on "most innovative artists" but it was very time-consuming for a largely unworthy, unimportant cause. I don't really care if he thinks the Beatles are the most innovative artists.

I don't think you were un-tactful, you had stated your reasons time and again and he wasn't taking it in. The only thing left to do was to acknowledge he wouldn't listen and end the discussion. The Beatles were alright on some of their tracks, but as you and many other points out - they were hugely overrated, and merely sold better than other more original bands because they took music of great innovation, and repackaged it for consumption by the masses. Also, they had great marketing, and were riding on who they were by the end, not how good their music was.

Well, it's good that it didn't come across too harshly because I regretted it after about 31 minutes. I agree with you on the Beatles but am burnt out about talking about it, as you clearly understand. I have loads of discussion from earlier postings all on the same subject that I've since archived. One day I may decide to devote an article on here covering the subject, so as to detonate previous arguments, but not now.

Sorry, of course, I understand completely.

It's all good. Thanks.

Yeah, "Frankie Teardrop" is something else, no? That's a goosebump song if I ever heard one.

For sure. That album as a whole is one of the most harrowing music recordings in history.

I'm confused AfterHours as to why Sister Ray is so high compared to Interstellar Overdrive. They are both extremely psychedelic, long, etheral and have a similar sound. I can understand why you would prefer Sister Ray over it, but I not by that much. Apart from that, no other thoughts, except that of the other songs off hear I recognise I feel that you have placed them very comprehensively.

Well, they're both supreme masterpieces so each is very deserving of the highest praise. Basically, the reasons are:

Despite how astonishing Interstellar Overdrive is, I find Sister Ray significantly more so. It's much more relentless, a suffocating monstrous black mass of sorts, where the guitars and organ being played are driven to such extremes that during the song the organ actually explodes. Relentless, pummeling free-form noise reaches such a zenith that it becomes an out-of-body experience and enters a realm of both apocalypse and spiritual overwhelm. It is the epitome of emotional power from both ends.

Another reason for the separation is that there just happens to be over 30 other songs between the two that are even more emotional than Interstellar Overdrive. Taking each, one by one, step by step is a very gradual increase though. Ranking them in order is a tough task but after many, many listens the difference between each and every song/track becomes increasingly defined and clear to me.

except that of the other songs off hear I recognise I feel that you have placed them very comprehensively.

thanks ( : it's been a very gradual evolution.

As a note, the current unnumbered rankings (9.25/10 & 9/10) should not be considered very accurate. I've thrown them up there with some semblance of order, but at this point they're not nearly as "calculated" as the 9.5 and 9.75 rankings. They're up there more so I can have them there, then accurately organize them later, which is also why they're not numbered yet.

My lord what a interesting list though these two tracks belong right up there with any experimental rock track made up until these records were recorded. The Beatles Tomorrow Never Knows The album's true highlight is "Tomorrow Never Knows," which was the most radical song recorded in pop music up to that point. John Lennon's voice sounds as if he was high on a mountain top, calling out to anybody who'll listen--or meditate--to his voice. The song has only one chord, but has a swirling soundscape that foreshadows the sampling of late 80s/early 90s hip-hop. The song is comprised of tape loops that were used in a way similar to the modern day use of samples in rap/pop songs. Yes it's not rap or techno but anyone listening the way the tape loops were used know the song was conceptually ahead of it's time. Also one of the first uses of the mellotron

Strawberry Fields Forever at this point pop rocks greatest example of avant and rock music. It's psychedelic arrangement influencing everyone from Pink Floyd to future prog artists King Crimson. Also influential was it's use of reverse drum effects, pucnchy drum sound, extended fake ending and psychedelic sounding mellotron parts which popularized the instrument in psychedelic music and progressive rock.

I think both songs are amazing. Strawberry Fields was on here for a day, then I listened to it again and decided (at least for now) that it's an 8.75/10.
Tomorrow Never Knows is close as well. Certainly these are two of the best Beatles songs. The 9/10's and 9.25's aren't even close to completion so there will be hundreds of additions in the near future, with perhaps a small army of the best Beatles songs making it too. Strawberry Fields and A Day in the Life have the best shot.

While I don't dislike VU, The Doors, Dylan, and I love Pink Floyd there are Beatles tracks that I consider more progressive. Since your tastes reflect more of a avant taste. I think Lennon Revolution # 9 political avant garde collage very daring and new in rock music. I add a review of Eleanor Rigby a song that I like a lot.

The techniques used to make "TMK" (some of which are also used on "Rain", "She Said, She Said" and "I'm Only Sleeping") are blindingly progressive and way ahead of their time - but ultimately, the fab 4 did indeed make something more akin to modern dance music than Prog Rock with "TMK".

There is a thriving Progressive Dance set of genres, based on exactly this sort of methodology - except using the far easier to use computer/sampler based setup. The difficulty in these genres is sorting out the few really creative artists (and there are some!) from the copy and paste merchants.

Of the tracks on "Revolver", with Love You Too on a different planet musically for rock music I'd say that "Eleanor Rigby" is probably closest to Prog Rock - I mean, a pop/rock song set only for "classical" instruments but still feels like a Beatles' song, telling a complete story that is dark and completely outside of popular culture, that pulses with alive rhythms and yet maintains the feeling of a string quartet with finely harmonised voices is just something else!

I actually don't want to change your mind. I am just interested why you picked songs by Dylan, Captain Beefhart and The Doors over Beatles songs that most musicians would give their right arm to write.

While I don't dislike VU, The Doors, Dylan, and I love Pink Floyd there are Beatles tracks that I consider more progressive. Since your tastes reflect more of a avant taste. I think Lennon Revolution # 9 political avant garde collage very daring and new in rock music. I add a review of Eleanor Rigby a song that I like a lot.

The techniques used to make "TMK" (some of which are also used on "Rain", "She Said, She Said" and "I'm Only Sleeping") are blindingly progressive and way ahead of their time - but ultimately, the fab 4 did indeed make something more akin to modern dance music than Prog Rock with "TMK".

There is a thriving Progressive Dance set of genres, based on exactly this sort of methodology - except using the far easier to use computer/sampler based setup. The difficulty in these genres is sorting out the few really creative artists (and there are some!) from the copy and paste merchants.

Of the tracks on "Revolver", with Love You Too on a different planet musically for rock music I'd say that "Eleanor Rigby" is probably closest to Prog Rock - I mean, a pop/rock song set only for "classical" instruments but still feels like a Beatles' song, telling a complete story that is dark and completely outside of popular culture, that pulses with alive rhythms and yet maintains the feeling of a string quartet with finely harmonised voices is just something else!

I guess I'm just not as impressed by The Beatles as you are. I think that for every trick up the Beatles sleeves there are multiple examples of something similar, usually done earlier, and almost always much more impressive than what they pulled off. But I have no interest in arguing this, it's simply my opinion and like I've said before, it is totally fine that you differ.

I am just interested why you picked songs by Dylan, Captain Beefhart and The Doors over Beatles songs that most musicians would give their right arm to write.

They're just much more emotional to me than The Beatles ever were. I find the Beatles lacking mainly in emotional depth or impact (which is primarily what I look for). I find those other artists to be, in many cases, the epitome of emotional depth or impact.

"The Ascension" by Glenn Branca is indeed one of the greatest tracks of all time. My brain dissolves in the music every time I listen to it. Branca is an intellectual modern composer, but his music excoriates its listeners, then redirects them into primal stages of the universe's creation.

"The Ascension" can be appreciated both for its ingenious composition (the way Branca makes those guitars howl is no incident - he had map the harmonic series a la La Monte Young in order to create that resonance and feedback), but it's also one of the most deeply emotional tracks ever recorded.

9.5/10 indeed.

Indeed, the album overall is also one of the most overwhelmingly powerful of all time, due in no small part to the incredible title track.

I removed the ratings because it is simply too complex to assimilate. I may reinstate them at a later time.

It includes "Lieber Honig" by Neu!? That is one of the biggest "album ruiners" I've ever heard! Exactly what do you hear in this track? What is the emotion? It sounds like someone jammed a microphone down a kid's throat! Normally I can understand what you're talking about, even if I don't agree, but I usually "get it"...with this track, I'm lost. Care to explain?

It sounds like someone dying and being born simultaneously, and also projects a certain desperate nostalgia, and intense spiritual longing, a search for meaning. Within the context of the album it acts as an emotional climax of Neu's modus operandi--with the architectural and organic schematics we've come to know from the 5 previous tracks we now have an intense outpouring of human suffering and spiritual rebirth, being projected within those same forms. As if life has been lifted up and created out of mere mechanics, blueprints and schematics. The metaphysics previously touched on from the rest of the album now take on a whole new emotional plain.

1983 By Jimi Hendrix? At least a 9.0, if not more!

Yep, there are tons of tracks still to be added and that's one of them. Matter of fact, this list in particular needs some serious revision. I'll get to it when I get the chances.

hey afterhours,

i wondered if you had ever listened to the first single from Television "Little Johnny Jewel" released in 1975.

it's pretty amazing, you can listen to it on youtube here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRMU3eqN2TQ

Oh cool, I'll check it out soon. Thanks!

have you heard the version off of The Blow-Out (a live Television album)? it is damn good, as is the orginal studio single.

I haven't. Sounds like its worth checking out

yeah, if you are either a big Television fan or can get the album without much cost (my brother left it behind when he left, so - freebie!!) then it is worth checking out. 15 minutes, most of which is a Tom Verlaine solo. :-)

Feif are any of the Televsion albums past Marquee Moon any good?

they are ok, but that depends on what you want for your money. compared to Marquee Moon, Adventure and Television are lounge acts. they are more subdued. they both lack the guitar ferocity, lyrical poignancy (i did not do a word for word analysis) and overall quality that Marquee Moon has, that the best songs on the two subsequent albums would be the worst on Marquee Moon (imo, how each side lays out so neatly and that the album is basically one continuous song). but, being a fan of Television i do not regret buying the later albums. but, i do feel you can (and i could have) purchase(d) other, better, more interesting, albums; and if you have slsk or want to exchange emails i can help you find those albums – if they exist, i know of them, and you want them. note: i only checked a few places and those albums would not come cheap – $30+ for both.

This is your taste in music and I don't want to slam it. How you judge "Sister Ray" or "When Big Joan Sets Up" as masterpieces over songs like that are very Avant like and experimental in songs like "Tomorrow Never Knows" or "Revolution #9 is beyond me? What is your criteria? If it's Scaruffi than it has to be right. I contend the man does not know anything about music theory.

Most groups like your Doors or the Velvet Undergound were using the basic drum, guitar, organ lineup. The Beatles experimental rock sound was utterly unique in using Indian Instruments, backward tape, musique concrete, Tape loops, electronica and vocal through guitar speakers what in 1966. Well in the case of the Velvet Underground they did use viola drones.

Songs like "A Day in the Life" or "Within You Without Your" are easily as different and experimental than the the Doors, The Velvet Underground and Pink Floyd. People think that the stranger you sound the more experiemental you are you know that's rubbish. The Beatles were experimenting with musique concrete, Classical Indian and Avant Garde. I hear nothing but extended drones and feedback on many of the tracks on VU first two albums.

The Doors first album is higly overrated its basic structure is blues music with Psychedelic overtones. Other than the "The End" the album is dated and not really that Progressive. Early Pink Floyd who I like very psychedleic sounding and innovative but the really Pipers sounds as dated as The Doors.

Here are some Beatles songs Afterhours being a Scarrufite devotee that might fit your taste.

"Tomorrow Never Knows"- A song that's way ahead of it's time and a influence on various genres. Three minutes of pure dissonance and foreign influences.
"Love You Too- Yeah how many rockers were combining Classical Indian with avant music.
"Strawberry Fields Forever"- really must I comment.
"A Day in the Life- Modern Atonal orchestration. Multiple part song with multiple part time signatures. The First Progressive Rock Song?
"You know My Name"(Look up the Number)- The full version On Anthology 2 with the Ska part in the middle eight.
"What's the New Mary Jane""- Musique concrete and avant piece. Did Syd Barret partner the Beatles on this track?
"Revolution # 9"- A total avant piece and basically made of samples
"Wild Honey Pie"- This song might be worthy of Captain Beefhart. LOL

Well, I understand your viewpoint. Simply put, we just disagree on pretty much everything regarding music and I'm totally fine with that. You should make your own list(s) and establish your own community of people who agree with your tastes and enjoy discussing the Beatles accomplishments with you. There are tons of them around as the Beatles are fantastically popular and loved. I am not too interested in addressing your points as, based on previous attempts, it is not likely to go anywhere productive. Those are all fine Beatles songs. Revolution 9 is a masterpiece to me and is already on the list. Thanks.

Ok I don't agree with you but I will leave it that. Where is Revolution 9 on this list?

Oh maybe I forgot to update it onto this one. You can find it on the other one with Classical added. I'll add it to this one during my revisions I'm working on. Thanks for noticing that.

No Grateful Dead? You should check out Dark Star of Live/Dead. It's nearly as good as Sister Ray as far as jamming, improvised rock songs go. It's the perfect embodiment of the Grateful Dead's "Acid tests".

Thanks for reminding me. It's been on my list of "to do's" for far to long now. I don't doubt it will make it on here when I get around to it.

It's on there now. Thanks again. ( :

I don't understand what's better about Voodoo Chile than 1983 by Hendrix? The latter is far more emotional and more joined as one piece, whereas Chile is disjointed and unnecessary...

Good question. Both are astonishing...

"disjointed and unnecessary" could just as well describe virtually all of free jazz and the entirety of Twin Infinitives/Uncle Meat/Parable/Escalator/TMR, ad infinitum, so I think this is more part of it's appeal rather than otherwise. To me, 1983 is an 8.5/10 though I need to listen to it again before placing it. I simply find the frenzied eruptions of Voodoo Chile more emotional than the deft echoing pathos and gradual build up of 1983 (to me his 2nd greatest work ahead of Third Stone From The Sun) though I've gone either way in the past, so I wouldn't be surprised if I change my mind.

And here we go ...! (rock only, in random order)
----
* Perfect Day - Lou Reed
* Aggregate - Forookesh
* Everything Gets Fucked Up - Forookesh
* Mohammad's Birthday - Forookesh
* Humor Me - Pere Ubu
* Stairway To Heaven - Led Zeppelin
* I Want You - Bob Dylan
* Sad Eyed Lady Of The Lowlands - Bob Dylan
* Paranoid - Black Sabbath
* St. Elmo's Fire - Brian Eno
* Halleluwah - Can
* Paperhouse - Can
* Mushroom - Can
* Yoo Doo Right - Can
* Abba Zabba - Captain Beefheart
* Electricity - Captain Beefheart
* One Red Rose That I Mean - Captain Beefheart
* Moonlight On Vermont - Captain Beefheart
* Jolene - Dolly Parton
* Monster Walks The Winter Lake - David Thomas
* Light My Fire - The Doors
* Miss Fortune - Faust
* Tusk - Fleetwood Mac
* Peaches En Regalia - Frank Zappa
* White Rabbit - Jefferson Airplane
* Somebody To Love - Jefferson Airplane
* California Dreaming - Mamas & Papas
* Negativland - Neu!
* Passion - Peter Gabriel
* Ah! - Popol Vuh
* In The Aeroplane Over The Sea - Neutral Milk Hotel
* Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue - Ramones
* Alifib - Robert Wyatt
* Satisfaction - Rolling Stones
* Jumping Jack Flash - Rolling Stones
* Brown Sugar - Rolling Stones
* Apple Bed - Sparklehorse
* Venus - Television
* Marquee Moon - Television
* Radio Ethiopia - Patti Smith
* Europian Son - Velvet Underground
* Venus In Furs - Velvet Underground
* Heroin - Velvet Underground
* Sex Beat - Gun Club

Great choices!

this is the best list i've seen throughout listology. awesome list man!

Thanks! It has taken a lot of thought and work so far so it's nice to have it appreciated. I'd love to see some lists from you. Any plans?

perhaps... but i just joined listology so i doubt i'll have any readers, so i guess i'll just keep my lists to myself for now.

Fair enough

9.5 (probably complete) vs. 2 new additions to a 15 piece list, hmmmm ;-)

Trust me, I don't mind being wrong on these things ( :

This is your list and I will respect your choices and discuss the songs on your list that I really like. On the top end of your list I like the “The End”-The Doors-The Doors-Track #11 (1967) over "Sister Ray". I give you props for putting "Revolution #9" most Beatles fans don't understand what are the concepts going on with that song with it's extensive sampling, looping, both very common elements now in pop music.

Back to your list I would choose "The End" by the Doors. It's not garage rock/psych and it's really not related to British Psychedelia music. I have heard a lot of songs from the 60's and I really feel this song stands out. I am sure “Sister Ray” was a unique track but that does not make it better than “The End”. I just feel “The End” has more of what I like in a track.

A Saucerful of Secrets-Pink Floyd-A Saucerful of Secrets-Track. Nice choice

One song I like not on your list I think "House of the Rising Sun" by the Animals.

RE: House of the Rising Sun...great song, great choice and it may be added. Have to listen to it as its been awhile. There are so many versions...

I don't blame you choosing The End. It's astonishing. It invented rock as dramatic theatre and is one of the most emotionally transcendent works in the genre.

You have to listen I think the Animals studio version "House of the Rising Sun" in the context of it when it came out in 1964. Side note in America the Animals version of "House of the Rising Sun" was a number one song before The Rolling Stones scored their first hit in America. People forget that fact the The Animals were part of the British Invasion before the Rolling Stones.

i wonder what are your views on the temple of love by sisters of mercy?

Haven't heard it but I certainly want to. What do you think?

well i think its kinda overrated by Scaruffi i.e. its not as good as he says it is, but then it is an above average dark punk song which is quite emotional (perhaps haunting) with Bowie-like vocals. its far away from songs by Pere Ubu and Pop Group though.

Any love for Big Star's "September Gurls," arguably the best pop/rock song ever?

Have you heard Zappa's Little House I used to Live In, Brown Shoes Don't Make It or Music For Electric Violin and Low Budget Orchestra? all deserving of 9/10 IMO

I'd agree that Little House and Brown Shoes should be 9s if King Kong is an 8.5 and Music For would probably be an 8.5 or 8.

I second the 9 for Brown Shoes. Little House depends on my mood, but that bluesy violin is ace!

Little House and Brown Shoes are probably both 9's or high 8.5's. Haven't heard them in a while though. When I relisten (hopefully soon) I'll rate and rank them properly. Not sure about Music For... I'd have to hear it again...

I think it may have been mentioned on the list that includes classical a while ago but have you had a chance to check out Tangerine Dream yet? The track Atem is good but the more deserving for this list in my opinion would be Birth Of Liquid Plejades on the album Zeit. It may interest you to know that the reason Klaus Schulze left Tangerine Dream after Alpha Centauri was over a disagreement on how to implement an idea they had for an album that time was motionless and a human construct. He made Irrlicht, the remaining Tangerine Dream made Zeit. I find both albums to be very powerful although I think Irrlicht does have a slight edge. Birth Of Liquid Plejades is the first track of the album and is the stylistic equivalent of Satz Ebene - so the emotional core of the album. I sometimes think it may be the most underrated album by Scaruffi in his rock history...then I rehear Meet The Residents lol. Let me know what you think!

Thanks. The track Atem should've been on this list long ago. I've long considered it 8+. I'll make sure to check out Birth of Liquid Peljades...sounds really good...

hi all, first, thanks for this great list, i found a lot of tracks i love in, and i discovered some great tracks i didnt know..

There's one which should really be in the list to me cauz its
in the spirit of the selection :

Every step of the way (track#10)- Santana - album: Caravanserai

i dont complain , but maybe some of you dont know this Amazing track,
dont be afraid cause it's carlos santana, just listen ,maybe not a 9.5
but i think at least a 8.5/9 to me ..
(dont stop listening before the end of the introduction at 2mn55secs)
u can listen to it easily on deezer or other music websites..

sorry my english s not perfect, i m french.

thanks, I'm listening to it right now.

I'd agree with tetar that Every Step Of The Way is a masterpiece, however I think the credit largely goes to Michael Shrieve for creating the composition.

thanks, if it makes my list I'll probably give them both credit

Maybe some of these songs can be of interrest? The list below is adjusted a bit (down from a top 300 to a top 100) towards your taste.

Good luck!

1. Charles Mingus – Trio & Group Dancers, Single Solos & Gr Dance, Group & Solo Dance
2. Robert Wyatt – Little Red Riding Hood Hit The Road
3. Herbie Hancock – Speak Like A Child
4. New York Dolls – Frankenstein
5. Love – The Red Telephone
6. Pharoah Sanders – The Creator Has A Master Plan
7. Was (Not Was) – Wheel Me Out
8. King Crimson – Starless
9. Beatles – A Day In The Life
10. Miles Davis – Concierto de Aranjuez (Adagio)
11. Doors – Light My Fire
12. Sonic Youth – Teen Age Riot
13. Rahsaan Roland Kirk – Pedal Up
14. Charles Lloyd – Sunrise/Sunset
15. Sonic Youth – The Diamond Sea
16. Soft Machine – A Certain Kind
17. Stan Tracey – Starless And Bible Black
18. John Coltrane – Olé
19. Frank Zappa – Son of Mr. Green Genes
20. Elliott Smith – Alameda
21. King Crimson – 21th Century Schizoid Man & Mirrors
22. Television – Torn Curtain
23. Trentemöller – Into The Trees (Serenetti Part 3)
24. Beach Boys – Surf's Up
25. Steely Dan – Aja
26. Van Der Graaf Generator – House With No Door
27. Love – You Set The Scene
28. Beta Band – Dry The Rain
29. Factory – Path Through The Forest
30. Bobby Womack – Across 110th Street
31. Lou Christie – Paint America Love
32. Todd Rundgren – Couldn’t I Just Tell You
33. Yo La Tengo – Pass The Hatchet, I Think I’m Goodkind
34. The Who – Overture/See Me Feel Me
35. Television – Marquee Moon
36. Popul Vuh – Hosianna Mantra/Kyrie
37. Colosseum – Valentyne Suite
38. Miles Davis – Shhh/Peaceful
39. Cymande – Dove
40. Dennis Wilson – River Song
41. Silver Jews – How To Rent A Room
42. Bob Dylan – Like A Rolling Stone
43. Cannibal Ox – Iron Galaxy
44. Squarepusher – Tetra-Sync
45. Nick Drake – Three Hours
46. Genesis – Firth Of Fifth
47. Roxy Music – A Song For Europé
48. Teenage Fanclub – Everything Flows
49. Bob Dylan – Desolation Row
50. DJ Shadow – In/Flux
51. Edan – Making Planets
52. Jimi Hendrix – Bold As Love
53. Nick Cave – Song Of Joy
54. Charles Mingus – The Shoes Of The Fisherman’s Wife Are Some Jive Ass Slippers
55. Waterboys - My Love Is My Rock In The Weary Land
56. Jeff Buckley – Grace
57. Jean-Claude Vannier – L’enfant Au Roayume Des Mouches
58. Mike Bloomfield – Al Kooper – Albert’s Shuffle
59. Tom Waits – Ruby’s Arms
60. Carla Bley & Luke Haines – Businessmen
61. Waterboys – Red Army Blues
62. David S. Ware – Godspelized
63. Michel Legrand – Arrivee de Comionneurs
64. Massive Attack – Unfinished Sympathy (Perfecto remix)
65. Magazine – Definitive Gaze
66. David Axelrod – The Human Abstract
67. Thin Lizzy – Roisin Dubh (Black Rose) - A Rock Legend
68. Orbital – The Box (28.25)
69. Fairport Convention – Matty Groves
70. Robert Wyatt – Sea Song
71. Steve Hackett – Shadow Of The Hierophant
72. Stevie Ray Vaughan – Riviera Paradise
73. Amon Düül II – Phallus Dei
74. Rotary Connection – Magical World
75. Patti Smith – Ain’t It Strange
76. Guided By Voices – Over The Neptune/Mesh Gear Fox
77. Psycedelic Furs – Sister Europé
78. Minnie Riperton – Les Fleur (4Hero remix)
79. Scott Walker – The Seventh Seal
80. Donovan – Celeste
81. Townes Van Zandt – Pancho & Lefty
82. Gene Clark – Strength Of Strings
83. Mercury Rev – Empire State
84. Wipers – Youth Of America
85. Dreamies – Program Ten, pt. 2
86. Screamin’ Jay Hawkins – I Put A Spell On You
87. Minnie Riperton – Rainy Day In Centreville
88. Leonard Cohen – Suzanne
89. Stone Roses – Fools Gold
90. Can – Oh Yeah
91. Albert Ayler – Truth Is Marchin In
92. Neu! – Hero
93. Velvet Underground – I’m Waiting For My Man
94. Yeah Yeah Yeahs – Maps
95. Comus – The Herald
96. Can – Halleluwah
97. Lee Hazlewood – A Better Place To Be
98. Anthony Braxton – Compositions 40 F – 23 J
99. Pixies – Debaser
100. Laura Nyro – Timer

What about Dali's Car? I always felt like that was the most pithy, witty, and beautiful on TMR. A really simple beautiful little set of counterpoint. Doesn't have the trademark Beefheart wailing, but it's got all his charm.

Also hell yeah Moonlight On Vermont best vocals on the album. (Well... tied with some of the acapellas...)

Sure, there would probably be several TMR tracks if I re-listened and took notes -- which I'm sure to do sometime soon

You're so damn thorough. I appreciate that a lot.

I feel like Dali's Car might run the risk of getting overlooked because it's just such a teeny-tiny song.

Thanks :) I'll be re-listening soon

Is your criteria for rating songs different than albums? Are the ratings even comparable? The first side of Black Saint and the Sinner Lady seems waaaaaay to low, but that's just my opinion.

Yep, criteria is the exact same as albums. If I rate a song 9.0 that would mean that song is just as amazing as an entire 9.0 album (not just a similarly timed portion of it, but the album in its entirety). For Black Saint & The Sinner Lady, if I combined the first 3 tracks into 1, I would probably rate Side 1 around the 8.5 range. Conversely, if you break apart a longer piece (song or album), its parts are very unlikely to each be equal or better than the whole piece altogether, hence: Track 1 - 7.6 / Track 2 - 7.5 / Track 3 - 7.5 ... If I broke up the last track into 3 roughly equal parts it would be a similar story (but with better ratings)... In summary, a masterpiece is always an accumulation of lesser parts. By personal observation of music as an art form, it's so far proven to be virtually impossible to make a masterpiece in less than, say, 10 minutes, simply because of how much emotional power needs to be accumulated to reach that level. It's rare enough that musicians create one in 40+ minutes...

It's subjective so there's not really any "right" or "wrong" here, but I should say that these ratings/rankings have been thought through and placed very meticulously. At this point, probably 95% of them can be considered accurate within my criteria -- no more than +/- 0.2 different than they're currently rated.

Cool, that makes a lot of sense.

Not that I expect to change your mind (!) but I have to completely disagree that masterpieces cannot be made in less than ten minutes. Analogously, there is nothing inherently better about an expansive novel than a short poem, nothing better about a massive fresco than a small painting. But, I realize you're referring specifically to music so here's just a few works that I think are flat out masterpieces and fairly short.

Chopin's Nocturnes, Op. 48
Bach's Prelude and Fugue No. 1 in C major, BWV 846
Bix Beiderbeck's I'm Coming, Virginia
Charles Mingus's Goodbye Pork Pie Hat

And of course there's plenty others, Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Art Tatum, B.B. King, Etta James, Billie Holiday, Al Green, etc. I think what they do in a short amount of time can be equally valuable to what the likes of Schubert and Mahler do in their breathtaking, expansive symphonies... it's just a different vision altogether, one that I couldn't do without.

Nope, not going to change my mind -- very sure of this ... Still, I did say "virtually impossible" (there's probably some in classical: maybe some under-10 minute movements by Beethoven [though no 9's immediately come to mind in the under 10 min time frame], maybe Bach's Tocatta & Fugue in D Minor -- isn't that usually just under 10 min?) ... By saying those you've listed are masterpieces (8.8+ within my criteria) you'd be saying that Mingus's Goodbye Pork Pie Hat (or any of those others) is every bit as incredible as all of, say, Irrlicht, or Blonde On Blonde, or Velvet Underground & Nico, or Astral Weeks, or, or, or... [insert entire album or classical work rated 8.8-9.2]. If those do actually inspire that degree of awe and amazement from you as those entire albums, then I envy you and wish they did that much for me. There must be thousands of songs that are 8.8+ but only dozens of entire albums -- which usually have the greatest songs within them ... Logically speaking, just think about it: how could that be?

Yes, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and working it out for myself -- meticulously listening to each and every one of them while also going through entire albums. I rarely put extensive lists together lightly...

Hmm, I take your point of not discussing works like Pork Pie Hat outside of the context of their albums. So let's leave that out of the discussion, but what about works that weren't made with an album in mind, and were intended to stand as a cohesive unit on their own?

Take, for example, the Bix recording; when the cornet begins it's one of the most powerful musical phrases I can think of. It's not as long as a Beethoven sonata or Haydn string quartet, but what he is expressing is profound and beautiful--so why would it not be equal to some of their work? Chopin's Nocturnes and Preludes and, especially, Bach's Well Tempered Clavier Book I are some of the greatest achievements ever, and I'd say they rank with some of the best of Beethoven and Mozart and Coltrane and Davis, and better than many lengthy works by Shostakovich, Brahms, Wagner, etc. Artists don't necessarily need great amounts of temporal space to express their extraordinary insights, the Chopin and Bach compositions I just listed (and I take them as overarching labels for separate works, as to do different would be like treating Beethoven's symphonies as one unit) are certainly superior, in my opinion, to anything (anything!) Dylan, or Reed, or Morrison did. That's not a slight to them, in my view Chopin and Bach are astronomical talents, but simply an example to demonstrate that things like lengths are essentially non-issues, it is what is done with the length--whether 5 minutes or 50--that is important.

A masterpiece is a masterpiece. I get you're saying "virtually" but the idea that a certain length of time is required to qualify something as a masterpiece is absurd, to me. It's like saying something needs to be in 3/4 time, or feature a cello.

Having said all this: imo & de gustibus non est disputandum, et al.

Ahhh, discussion is good :)

First, word-for-word what I said:

"By personal observation of music as an art form, it's so far proven to be virtually impossible to make a masterpiece in less than, say, 10 minutes, simply because of how much emotional power needs to be accumulated to reach that level. It's rare enough that musicians create one in 40+ minutes..."

I didn't say "a certain length of time is required to qualify something as a masterpiece..." (seems to be your interpretation of what I said)

I would say: "a certain amount of emotion is required to qualify something as a masterpiece." That does, of course, take time to accomplish. And, based on what I've heard, it seems to be "virtually" impossible to do so in less than 10 minutes.

An 8.8+ has to be truly one of the most extraordinary works ever. Something that very few, or even, no one else could've done.

Many jazz artists have come up with works as amazing as Pork Pie Hat. Though it's very good, it doesn't stand out to me as a virtually impossible achievement, or any more emotionally powerful than hundreds of other tracks I could list. I do think it's a really good track and Mingus Ah Um is a great album, but I don't think it's even in the same galaxy as Black Saint & The Sinner Lady which is an experience so overwhelming I can barely talk/write about it. How many works are as powerful as that?

I'm sure it is "possible" to do create an 8.8+ in 10 min or less, but I currently can't think of a single example of one. I would expect that Beethoven is the most likely candidate to have one that isn't popping off the top of my head at the moment. An 8.8+ isn't just "great" or "amazing" or feature "an amazing moment/passage" -- literally the entire running time is continuously amazing -- one is consistently thinking: amazing ... wow ... oh my god ... and this continues on and on until the accumulation of such leaves one dumbfounded and awestruck and overwhelmed and astonished at the overall experience ... there are tons of great songs/albums but it's a whole separate level entirely in those upper ranges ... at least that's my criteria ...

As far as 8.8+ in less than 10 min: the 1st movement of Beethoven's 5th might be one ... maybe Bach's Tocatta & Fugue in D Minor... Cecil Taylor's Steps, between 10-11 min (so doesn't really qualify), comes close (8.5/10). At a "per minute rate", it's definitely one of the most emotional pieces of music ever -- doesn't quite build up to 8.8+ overall, though close -- still, this gives one a good idea of how emotional a work would have to be to get there within 10 minutes. As it stands, it is about as emotionally powerful as Big Black's Atomizer. In other words, in 10-11 min it accomplishes the overall emotional power that Big Black does in 37.5 minutes ... pretty incredible...

In regards to something like Well Tempered Clavier: if many of it's little parts are 9's (if that's what you're saying), then is the whole accumulation of 2 hrs a 35/10? :)

Something that might help (or maybe not)... my ratings aren't necessarily based on "degree of perfection". Many little Bach pieces are "perfect", and so one could say: "it's perfect, that's a 10/10 of course." But hear (or read) this: they're not even attempting to be something close to as incredible or overpowering as, say, Beethoven's 9th so, while they "don't have any flaws" and are, thus, "perfect", they are also perfect within a much smaller scale than something like Beethoven's 9th. One can have a "perfectly little house, perfectly painted, nice carpet, everything works -- perfect", or one can have the Taj Mahal. Both "perfect" perhaps, but "perfection" within a totally different scale. Totally different levels of artistic achievement and architecture. The house is "perfect" -- there's nothing wrong with it. The Taj Mahal inspires an overwhelming level of awe, astonishment, etc. (Btw, I think Bach is one of the great geniuses in the history of mankind and the above was simply an analogy -- Bach is a horrible example, a band like The Beatles would be better... with several works Bach does get within range of the 9th: Mass in B Minor, Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor, Violin Partita 2, St Matthew Passion -- I'm only referring to some of his individual tracks which are very good, but illustrate the difference between the "most extraordinary and powerful works ever" and "great songs/tracks")

Anyway, I agree: it's not the length of time, it's what is done with the length :)

Just a note: all of the above is my opinion, nothing more. Even though I am strongly stating my opinion, I don't mean it to be read as though I am stating it as "absolute fact". The above works for me. It may or may not work for you. Though I am totally certain in my view and my own way of rating/ranking, I can also see where you're coming from with yours :)

Oh of course, wouldn't take it as anything else. I appreciate your elucidation.

Thanks, you too.

I forgot to address this: "So let's leave that out of the discussion, but what about works that weren't made with an album in mind, and were intended to stand as a cohesive unit on their own?"

Doesn't make a difference. The ratings are based on the same criteria, the same scale, which is basically "degree of emotional power" or similar wording. It's: "is that one song/track as emotionally powerful as an entire 8.8+ album?" And, if not, how emotionally powerful is it? Is it as powerful as [insert lesser rated song/album]?

One keeps descending until the closest comparison is found and that's the rating. This is increasingly difficult to do the less one is familiar with many/most/all of the greatest songs or albums in the first place.

By Original Sin, you mean the SECOND track of the album, right? (the first technically is just the Invocation)

Also confusing is the Pink Stainless Tail entry.

Oh yeah, thanks -- Track 2 is Original Sin, of course -- I fixed that. For Pink Stainless Tail, I've never found a track listing of Parable of Arable Land that wasn't confusing, but on the 1993 CD (which is probably the one most have), the entire 1st Side (which is 3 "songs" with accompanying "free form freak outs"), computes as "Track 1", then Pink Stainless with accompanying "free form freak out" is "Track 2". There's been a recent 2011 reissue which possibly changes this. According to the Amazon.com listing, that newer issue seems to separate each of the "songs" and "freak outs" in which case "Pink Stainless Tail/Free Form Freak Out" would be Track #8, or maybe Track 8 & 9, depending on what they're counting as a "song" and what they're counting as a "Free form freak out". In any case, it's the first "song" and "freak out" of Side 2. It's a ferocious, insistent "Doors-ian" song that morphs into a "freak out", and that comes after the similarly ferocious, insistent "Doors-ian" "War Sucks" song (that also morphs into it's own "freak out").

The 2011 reissue (especially the mono disc) is insanely better than any release on CD before. I normally do not care for endless remastering and reissuing of decades old material, but in this case, it needed some cleaning up badly, and they finally got it right.

Awesome, I bet it is. I plan on getting it. Thanks :)

Oh, now I realize what you meant. You see, I know about the 1993 CD, but that's why I was confused: I thought the Pink Stainless Tail entry was about the track on that particular CD titled Pink Stainless Tail (I think you had only "Track #2" written with it before actually, glad you made it more specific). Also, are you deliberately ignoring the first free-form freakout on Side 2, or did you forget it, or perhaps that would be included in your PST entry though you don't mention it at all? If it is included, then that'd mean the title track is the only track not included. Poor guy :(

The remaster's track-listing has a slight difference from the original's by the way: War Sucks and the free-form freakout that follows it and thus ends the first side are combined into one 6-minute track, which is why, instead of the original's 13 tracks, it has 12 tracks. Also, you might've noticed the 1993 CD has a ("bonus"?) 2-minute track at the end. I think it's the track on the remastered CD that's called "Former Reflections Enduring Doubt (Unreleased Alt Stereo Edit & Mix)". Confusing isn't it?

The tracklisting for Parable of Arable Land has been in flux since the original vinyl. The back of the LP sleeve indeed lists the collage at the end of "War Sucks" as a "Free Form Freakout", yet the actual labels on the vinyl neglect to mention it, only listing the Freakouts that preface each "song".

Oh brother... :)

Which edition of Ascension do you prefer?

Probably "Edition II" (also it was the first recording and Coltrane considers it the standard version).

Nothing new to see here. Just archiving this list...